Question for you Mich Bass Reg guys,

[Dan]

If you are out fishing and foul hook a bass on a crankbait can it be kept legally? I know this has come up before, especially after the Classic that KVD foul hooked on and put it in the livewell. I know a lot of states you can, but can't remember if you can in Michigan. I was out salmon fishing and foul hooked two salmon, which I was told we had to release. I thought though I remembered you could keep a bass hooked that way. I will try and look it up on the DNR website, but sometimes it's much faster to ask here. Great knowledge base to tap.

[djkimmel]

From the 2012 Michigan fishing guide:
Definitions
Snagging means attempting to take fish in a manner that the fish does not take the hook voluntarily in its mouth. It is unlawful to snag fish.

Lawful Fishing Methods
Hook and Line Fishing: Fish so taken must be hooked in the mouth. Fish not hooked in the mouth must be returned to the water immediately.

It is unlawful to:
Snag fish or retain a fish not hooked in the mouth.
Take or attempt to take fish outside of the open season for that species. (Bonus addition because I get asked this multiple times every year and talk to anglers in Michigan all the time who say they are not aware of this regulation.)

2012 Michigan Fishing Guide
2012 regulations are in effect through March 31, 2013.
• Major Regulation Changes for 2012
• Inland Trout and Salmon Regulations and Maps

[Dan]

So, when the Elite anglers come to St. Clair crankbaiting Marshals will have to watch to see they are all hooked in the mouth. What about Canada?

[djkimmel]

Canada regulations are similar. I don't think I have the exact language handy. Just recall seeing it in the past. Okay since I try to be thorough for all of you, I found the language. See below.

Your specific concern would be a good question for the tournament director. Years ago, a Bassmaster event was won on Lake St. Clair with a final smallmouth bass catch where the winner told the story about how he snagged it in the body. The bass should have been released immediately but by the time anyone realized it was an illegal catch in Michigan the event was decided and over.

With crankbaits, some anglers say they see one set of hooks in the mouth and one set hooked on the outside of the mouth. Then while fighting the bass, the one hook pulls out of the mouth but they still get the bass in because the other hook caught on the outside of the mouth or on the body holds. Many anglers in Michigan would consider that a legal catch. According to Michigan fishing regulations and law, that is an illegal catch that must be returned to the water.

PDF: Ontario Recreational Fishing Licence Information
GENERAL PROHIBITIONS – IT IS ILLEGAL TO:

• Possess a spring gaff, snagger or spear gun within 30 m (98 ft.) of any waters. A spring gaff includes any spring loaded device which sets the hook for an angler. No person shall take fish with a gaff, snare, snagger or spear gun. A gaff, other than a spring gaff, may be used to assist in landing fish caught by lawful means.
• Catch a fish by impaling or snagging it with a hook through any part of the body other than the mouth – any fish hooked in this way must be released immediately
• Use dynamite or other explosives to take or destroy fish. (You know this comes up once in a while though probably not by any Elite Anglers .)
• Bonus: Abandon fish or permit the flesh to spoil, if the fish is suitable for human consumption. (This also comes up whenever someone asks about releasing or culling a dead fish.)

[djkimmel]

Some newer Ontario fishing regulations that pertain to tournament angling including where they are actually more progressive* than Michigan for a change.

Ontario General Fishing Regulations
Catch and Possession Limits – The catch limit is the number of fish you are allowed to catch and keep in one day and includes fish that are not immediately released and any fish eaten or given away. The possession limit is the number you are allowed to have in your possession on hand, in cold storage, in transit, or anywhere. Possession limits are the same as one day's catch limit except where otherwise specified.
Competitive Fishing Events – Live fish cannot be transported overland without a permit.  Live release boats for competitive fishing events must have a permit in order to transport the catches of multiple anglers and be in possession of more than a daily catch limit (this would only apply to tournaments being run at a location in Ontario).
Livewell – A livewell is a compartment designed to keep fish alive. For a livewell to be used to selectively release bass, walleye and northern pike, it must be attached to or form part of a boat, hold a total volume of not less than 46 litres (10 gallons) of water, have the capacity for water exchange and be mechanically aerated at all times when live fish are being held in it (see Ontario's catch and retain rules, page 9). Remember, live fish may not be transported overland without a permit. Livewells should be drained before leaving a waterbody.
Open Seasons – Fishing season opening and closing dates vary depending on the species and the area. Dates are inclusive; all dates including the first and last dates stated in the summary are open or closed. It is illegal to attempt to catch fish for which the season is closed, even if you are going to release them. Fish accidentally caught during the closed season must be immediately released back to the water. Unless stated otherwise, species that are not listed (such as sucker and rock bass) have a year-round open season.
Size Limits – All size limits refer to total length which is a measure from the tip of the mouth with the jaws closed to the tip of the tail, with the tail fin lobes compressed to give the maximum possible length. Provincial regulations are established using the metric system.

*Ontario's Catch And Retain Rules
Generally, daily catch limits include all fish that are retained for any period of time and not immediately released.

Anglers fishing from a boat may now catch, hold, and selectively live release more walleye, northern pike, largemouth or smallmouth bass than the daily limit, provided:

• (a) the fish are held in a livewell with a mechanical aerator operating at all times (see Anglers Guide, page 8, for livewell requirements),
• (b) the fish comply with any applicable size limits,
• (c) the Sport or Conservation Fishing Licence daily catch and retain limits for walleye or northern pike are not exceeded at any one time,
• (d) no more than six largemouth or smallmouth bass (or any combination) caught under a Sport Fishing Licence are retained at any one time, and
• (e) the Conservation Fishing Licence catch and retain limits for largemouth and smallmouth bass (or any combination) are not exceeded at any one time.

Anglers are reminded to closely monitor the condition of fish held in a livewell. Only fish that are in such a condition that they will survive may be released (see Tips on Live Release of Fish, page 10). Releasing a fish that will not survive and allowing the flesh of that fish to be wasted is an offence. Any fish not live-released are part of your daily catch and retain limit.

[Got Fish??]

  most all of the clubs I have belonged too. Detriot-Ontario Muskie Club and the Metro-West Steelheaders. Both have a rule, no fowled hooked fish. I think the rule was. Not hooked in mouth, or with in a defined measurement from the mouth defined in that rule.

[djkimmel]

Most tournaments or groups seem to have a rule about following all state and local regulations. For Michigan and Ontario, if the fish isn't hooked in the mouth, it isn't legal. No exceptions for anything else for game fish and hook and line fishing that I'm aware of or can find.

I do like the tournament rules on sight-fishing during the spawn for any event that requires the angler to show the observer or co-angler/non-boater that the bass was hooked in the mouth or it has to be released. The more we follow laws and demonstrate good ethics, the better.

[Waterfoul]

"With crankbaits, some anglers say they see one set of hooks in the mouth and one set hooked on the outside of the mouth. Then while fighting the bass, the one hook pulls out of the mouth but they still get the bass in because the other hook caught on the outside of the mouth or on the body holds. Many anglers in Michigan would consider that a legal catch. According to Michigan fishing regulations and law, that is an illegal catch that must be returned to the water."

While I do not fish a lot of crankbaits, I don't like this part.  If the Co-angler/Marshal can plainly see that the fish has the bait both IN the mouth and on the outside of the mouth then the fish darts and the hooks in the mouth become dislodged, why should the angler be "punished" for something out of his/her control?  If there is a mutual agreement, why should it be an issue?

Just one more of those things with a grey area that some fishermen would find a way to take advantage of and warp it to fit the occasion.  I hate laws and regulations that include some kind of "what if.... " or "some people will....  " (think drop shotting here...).

[djkimmel]

It would be nice if laws and regulations would leave no gray area. I don't know that is possible. I have just always asked a tournament director when I felt I needed clarification. Sometimes I got it. Sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I don't ask. Sometimes I wish I hadn't asked...

If people always did the right thing, we wouldn't need laws and regulations. People don't always do the right thing though.

Of course, who decides what is the right thing too?

One solution for the legal catch issue would be to only use lures that have 1 hook all the time. This actually does get proposed sometimes and look at what happened with the Alabama Rig.

I do try to provide what I believe is the accurate information from the right sources about any question, law or regulation when I can. It never hurts to have some discussion about it either as long as we continue to keep it civil and also remember that nothing I or anyone else posts on here is a guaranty of how things might actually go in a tournament or legal matter.

[Waterfoul]

I just don't like laws and regs that are in place because "if we make it legal some people will abuse it" (again, think drop shotting here...).  Then the rest of us have to abide by laws/regs that really don't pertain to us.

Or how about this:  You can spear whitefish and pike, but you can't keep a foul hooked one??

THEN, trying to get laws/regs ammended or altered is (proving to be) impossible.

One bad apple ruins the bushel so let's chop down all the apple trees mentality sucks!   

[djkimmel]

That is true at times.

Spearing is a legal fishing method that has its own regulations and season based on the expected level of participation and harvest rate. A relatively low number of persons spear fish.

Drop-shotting is a really good example of punishing the masses due to a small number of bad apples. It can actually be changed. It just needs a dedicated few individuals who know the right people with the right information to fix it. We already fixed much of it. The rest can be fixed eventually but someone(s) will have to do it.

There's definitely a point for me where a regulation that makes it easier to enforce a problem is not warranted when you compare the fishing opportunity lost verses the crimes 'prevented.' I think drop-shotting fits that. But I would have to do some investigating into the latest known snagging rates and locations, and then convince some people that it would be good for Michigan fishing to give good people more freedom to enjoy a very popular and productive technique the way they want to.* Not sure when I personally will have that time. Maybe there's more snagging going on than I've been led to believe too?

Snagging itself is not quite as good an example in my opinion. I think most of us agree that fishing should be sporting which means we want to catch the fish by getting them to try to eat our lures. Plenty of times I have had fish bump my lure, slap at my lure or rush at or past my lure. I don't know if they weren't convinced, were testing it because they weren't sure or just showing it who's boss?? I do know they didn't eat my lure by taking it into their mouth for some reason.

So, I guess I feel I didn't actually catch the bass even if I hook it in head, side or tail. Maybe I came close? Maybe the water was just muddy and the fish didn't get out of the way very good.

It seems a little bit of a 'ripoff' when you actually see 1 hook in the mouth and 1 in the body somewhere and then the hook in the mouth pulls out so you only land it with the 'snagged' hook. But, if you only had 1 hook on the lure you would have either missed it or lost it?

Considering all the possibilities and options, I don't mind the way the law reads right now. I used to mind it when I was in a tournament and the directly above situation happened. Glad I don't have to worry about the anymore.


*There are drop-shot variations that I've had success with that I believe meet the requirements of a 3" or longer dropper from the main line to the hook that might be used in the few closed waters. My favorite was a 4 or 5" finesse worm that I would thread the 3 to 4" dropper line through using the hook on the end. I would use the worm body to create approximate 90° suspended action like a regular drop-shot - the main difference being instead of having the hook in the 'head' of the worm it is at or near the tail. I've caught plenty of bass that way.

[Dan]

I think that's where they coined the expression "donkey backwards." Just guessing though. I have also use some configurations like this on the west side drowned river mouths.

[djkimmel]

Maybe 'donkey' backwards for the kids on here...? donkey backwards sounds funnier too!