Largemouth Bass Virus (LMBV)

[Dan]

Just got done posting a DNR survey analysis report on teardropbass.com for Big Bass Lake. The survey documented a history of the lake and a summary of findings of a 2005 electro-shocking of the lake. In the analysis, it showed that the fish in the lake had LMBV. Has anybody read any other reports concerning the spread of this virus. Big Bass Lake is located in northwestern Lake County. It's about 40 miles east of Cadillac and 35 miles northwest of Ludington. If I'm not mistaken this is one of the northernmost lakes that has turned up positive for the virus.
I have a cabin on the lake and it has for years been a great bass lake. In the last 7 years the fishing has gone steadily downhill. It has gotten to the point where it is a real rarity to catch a legal bass. During the decline the legal fish began to look very thin with heads too big for the body. Slowly even those fish seemed to disappear. In the electroshocking, only one bass out of about 130 collected was over 14 inches. The lake association has tried stocking flathead minnows on two different occasions to help the bass population, but it hasn't shown much in terms of results. There seems to be an over abundance of small bass. You can all you want of the 7-10 class bass. Concerned, the Lake Association, contacted the DNR to help with the situation which eventually lead to there coming out to do the survey.
The DNR is recommending changing the limit to 10 inches on the lake for a period of time to help restructure the population. I wonder if moving the size limit downward shouldn't also include a slot limit? Anybody have any info. about a lake near them that may have had the virus, or know other associations who have tried to help the bass population while dealing with the virus?
The DNR is waiting until 2008 when the new reg booklet comes out to change the size limit pending approval of the lake association. In the article on the web site, it lists several links to sites that provide information on LMBV.

[djkimmel]

In the past on most lakes, LMBV has caused one die-off of larger bass and then the bass population seems to be infected but not active.

I have heard of possible 2nd die-offs much later, but I don't have any real good information on that - it is not common anyway.

Did you ever see evidence of a die-off of lots of larger bass within the past 4 or 5 seasons?

LMBV has gone much farther north than originally believed possible, but biologists and researchers still have a lot to learn about it.

Maybe a die-off has caused your present problem. Maybe it is something else - another dynamic or multiple dynamics. It would possibly help to know, but in the meantime, work with what you got - the MDNR fisheries biologists, and what you do know.

It may be just that for some reason, you ended up with an overabundance of small bass that have slow growth due to crowding. Maybe you did have a forage problem for a while too? Maybe not.

Sometimes, catch-and-release can go too far on some lakes too. Maybe you had really low mortality for a while and good spawns to get to too many bass? Who knows for sure.

A 10 ince size limit will only work if people keep some bass - maybe a lot of bass - depends on how many you have in the lake. They have to be removed and killed/eaten - NOT put in some other water where they can spread the LMBV.

Slot limits are specialized regulations with limited application and limited success. I think because of the limited success elsewhere, the specialized circumstances and the fact that we aren't used to them overall in Michigan makes our biologists less likely to use them.

If you have almost no larger bass, the slot limit won't do much for you at this point. Sounds like your primary goal is to remove a lot of small bass first. Largemouth bass normally start spawning around 10 inches so the MDNR is suggesting your remove a lot of small bass before they get too much chance to spawn.

After that occurs, then relook at the population for possible adjustments to the regulations. Try educating your friends and neighbors that they need to remove a bunch (legally of course) of 10 to 12 inch bass for now. Maybe if they know the score, they'll voluntarily toss back any larger bass if they are fortunate to catch one, but it sounds like that will not be a major concern for now.

One idea is to schedule a youth event with a large enough number of youth to remove a few hundred bass and have a big fish fry. Maybe have an early June event and a later in the summer event?

[Dan]

Thanks Dan,
I appreciate your input. Some very good ideas that I will share with the association folk. We have had a tournament on Big Bass Lake for years and about 5-7 years ago the fish started looking sick, skinny bodies large heads. With each subsequent year the numbers dwindled until our last tournament was won with two fish that didn't even weigh 4 lbs. I pretty much live all summer at the lake and have not seen any large or even small fish kills that attracted any bodies attention. Don't know if you read the article on teardropbass.com, but the association tried planting flathead minnows to up the forage two different years during the decline with no real results except some nice bluegill and perch. Do you think the DNR would approve a rule change for a day when we had a youth tournament? We started one last year and would like to continue it. No legal bass were caught in last year's. They appear to be waiting until the new fishing booklet comes out in 08 to post the change in size limit. The association seems to be in agreement and I am sure would go along with a change for a youth tournament and fish fry. I'll keep you posted on what I find out from the fisheries biologist, Mark Tonello out of Cadillac. He has been very helpful and a great guy to work with.  Thanks again.

[rufus]

I live in extreme NE Indiana and very close to four different lakes that have had LMBV. All of the lakes are 500-800 acres in size and host a few small tourneys each year. I fish all of them a lot. In each lake when the fish would start getting sick (during the heat of the summer, August or July) we would notice sores on the larger fish and a very tough bite, but would never see any dead fish floating, but low and behold within a week or two here would come the herbicide boats and they would wipe out all the weeds in the lake and BOOM the next couple of days a few truckloads of bass would be floating everywhere. I cannot claim to know all about the virus, but if you look at the history of it and the lakes it has occurred on, a very good portion of the lakes get treated for weeds very extensively such as Santee Cooper. All of the lakes around me get at least three very large applications every year. There is no real control to it either, they wipe almost all the weeds out. I have a lake about 2 minutes from my house called Crooked Lake that had a very similar problem occur that you described on your lake. It was an awesome bass lake (and I do mean AWESOME!). We had a few spring days with over 100 bass and this lake is only 860 acres. I had won several 3 1/2 hour Wednesday night tourneys with 7 fish limits in the 18-24 pound range many times and when the bite would get tough it would still take 12-14 pounds to win. About 1993 the lake association decided to start spraying the lake extensively and would wipe out every single weedbed in the lake and what used to be a very clear lake with 10 feet of visibility would turn into a weedless mudbowl. Over the next couple years the fish started getting sick and had the big head skinny body look. I remember a spring Wednesday nighter in 95 when we had a 7 fish limit (the only one on Crooked that year) that went 7 Lbs. 2 oz. and we had big bass that was 18 inches long that went 1' 15", most of our fish that night were 15 inchers. The fishing that night was actually very good and went downhill after that. There were a few times when out of the 20 boats or so that fished only two boats would bring in fish and most of the times two fish would win with 3-4 pounds. We had a 15 incher one night that went seven ounces that got us third . Anyway, this weed eradication went on til 1999, the fishermen had complained enough to finally have the state to stop this nonsense. They only allowed spot spraying and less than 30 percent of the weedgrowth was allowed to be sprayed. Within two years Crooked was back on track, I remember in 2002 we had a small club tourney where my partner and I quit counting fish at 11 am, we had 75 and we fished til 2 pm and the bite never let up. The fish once again got super fat and healthy and the population exploded. We were no yet catching the 5-6 pounders that we had caught in the early 90's, but 2 pounders and less were everywhere. In 2005 we had a Wednesday nighter where my brother and I sorted through 26 keepers to weigh 7 fish that went 23 pounds and our big fish was only 3'7". They were all nearly twins. This year the fishing was pretty good early in the spring, but due to a mild winter the weeds did not die off very well and the the milfoil was very heavy by the end of April. The lake association decided it was time to once again blow most of the weeds out of the lake. The fishing got very tough, but was still respectable. They did leave a few weedbeds alone, but they got about 90 percent of them. The fish once again started to get skinny by the end of summer. A friend of mine has stayed in close contact with the DNR and has voice our opinions on the matter many times by signed petitions by the fishermen. He has let them know about last summer and we are hoping this year will be better.
I did not mean to rant on and on about this, but it happens so often around here now on our good bass fis, errrr I mean million dollar mansion ski lakes that it is getting ridiculous. We still have many great lakes that never get touched with weed killer, but the absolute best ones are the weediest and get hit hard every year with the chemicals and the bass fishing is suffering on each and every one of them. I could write a book on each and every one of them and tell you what is happening. If your lake is getting treated for weeds I guarantee you that is the problem. Our DNR has denied the fact that the lakes have been hurt by it many times. After watching Crooked there is no doubt in my mind. We have been told it was a coincidence . If your lake is not treated, this is very interesting and I have never seen it around here. We have a very diverse array of lakes here in Steuben County with over 101 lakes in our small little corner so we see a lot of different situations. Our smaller non-ski lakes that we tournament fish on have never changed. They never get weed killer and all the shorelines are dotted with lake cottages with people who like to fish. Many of them are terrific fisheries and get tons of pressure, but not a single one of them has ever had any kind of fish kill or skinnyfishootis (is that a word ). God Bless and Good Luck with your lake Dan

[SethV]

LMBV really hit hard down south.  It seems to be much more deadly in warmer water when oxygen content is low.  This may be the reason that the weed killer agrivates the LMBV and "finishes" off the already sick fish.  From my experience on 2 large southern lakes (Grand Lake and Eufaula in Oklahoma) it is just something that has to run its course once it starts.  Both of these large lakes (100,000 acres) have very little vegitation.  Before LMBV, 5 fish limits over 20 lbs were the norm.  Once LMBV set in, the only fish that were really affected were the fish 12" or larger, with the biggest fish in the 18"+ range hit the hardest.  After the virus took hold, it was hard to even get a limit, much less some good weight.  In the 300 boat team opens, if you had 5 lbs on Eufaula that would likely get a check.  The peak of the virus was about 4 years ago.  Now, the lakes have really rebouned, possibly better than before the virus.  The fish are very healthy, and weights are going way up.  I don't think anyone really knows what causes it or how to prevent it.  We do know that anything that stresses a fish in warm water will increase mortality. 

If your lake does have LMBV, you will have a few years of bad fishing, but it will come back.  I second what Rufus said, if you can get them to stop spraying weeds it will help the lake rebound much quicker.

Seth V

[Skip Johnson]

Im not going to go on a rant about weed killing in the lakes or trusting the DNR but I could.

I will just say that it is wrong to poisoin our lakes and I dont believe for a second that the problems with the bass are not directley related to the chemicals!

Chemical treatment needs to be stopped.

[djkimmel]

It is well known that largemouth bass are made much more susceptible to stress by LMBV. Often, the die offs occur during times of highest stress - hot water, heavy fishing, major drastic habitat change.

I've let the MDNR know that one our major issues in Michigan for the future is weed killing. They are not unsympathetic. In Michigan, the Department of Environmental Quality is in charge of permits and regulations mostly, but that does not mean we can't have an impact on change.

I am glad to see us get the chance to discuss issues like these on here and share stories that might help bring about change.

[canvsbk]

 I certainly am no biologist.
However, it is very apparent when a lake is sprayed to kill the weeds that the bite is off for quite a while. It can't be good to put that stress on the fish.
I am very familiar with Big Bass Lake, it saddens me to hear the fishery has fallen off that much.  For many years I spent most summer weekends (and winter too) on that lake. I wish you the best of luck up there.

[Duke]

I am no biologist either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I'll say that the weed killers kill more than weeds. Property owners don't pay attention to the details of the lake like we do. We know when something bad happens, and I don't ever recall a time when a fisherman (not a biologist; if they work for the state I don't trust them either) said the spraying doesn't hurt the fish. I see it all the time around here too (South Bend, IN) and its absolutely horrible.

If you ever need a petition signed against spraying send it my way. I'll give you my John Hancock (that sounds kind of dirty doesn't it).

[Dan]

Hey guys thanks for the comments on this thread. Just got back in town and wasn't on the computer for a day and a half. Any how, thanks for the input and I will relay what I hear and learn from you to our association on the lake. As far as I know Big Bass Lake has never been sprayed. It is a 290 acre lake, and does allow high speed boating after eleven in the morning and prior to 7:30 after which a no wake is enforce. As I said the fishing for bass on this lake has always been very good. We have had a tournament on it every year for 20 plus years and you could really see how the fish started to skinny up and then just disapear. There are tons of short fish, but from what I have read here and elsewhere the smaller 7-12 in. fish aren't affected as much. This past fall in a 3 1/2 hour tournament there were two or three keepers caught that appeared healthier. I wasn't there and didn't see the fish, but that is what I was told. In any case with the DNR surveying the lake and taking fin and spine samples and send fish to the MSU lab we will have a measure that we can compare with in the future. Hopefully, bringing the balance back by culling some of these smaller fish for a while we can turn thinks around. Next year I'll fish it again and get to see myself. It has been so bad that even though I have a place on the lake I didn't do any fishing except from the dock the whole year. Our biologist has been very helpful and very willing to talk about how we can be proactive despite the virus being confirmed by the MSU lab.

After hearing about the weed spraying, I am wondering what will happen as lake associations deal with "swimmers itch." Big Bass as well as many lakes up north have that problem. I'm thinking of Duck Lake up at Interlochen which is a great fishing lake, but it also has swimmers itch. With the state park there I keep wondering if they will start spraying lakes to try and eradicate that problem.  Anybody have any knowledge as to what is happening out there with swimmers itch?

[djkimmel]

I have to say I can't really even scratch the surface on that one...

Might be a topic to add to my "learn about it" list.

[bassackward]

I don't agree that weed killers are safe, weed killers state on the label thjat you should keep away from childeren and pets. It also says not to use if it is going to rain, cuz it will kill off your other plant,and flowers. If it is not safe for me or you our pets plants and children, it is not safe for aquatic life in general.

[gbaade]

My Mother lives on Ryan Lake in Argentine (Near Fenton).And I just recently started fishing there again. From what my Mother's husband says the weed killer put a serious hurting on the fish there. I tried to fish the lake when I was a kid but all you could catch were really tiny gills. I had'nt even attempted to fish it until this past Summer and I was really shocked by the great fishing there now. Nice LM in the 12 to 17 range with some 19's possible, 25 to 30 inch Pike, and GREAT Crappie fishing. He said they stopped killing the weeds and it is in his mind the ONLY reason the fishing has returned to normal.

[djkimmel]

Fish need habitat and cover.