Tournament Pay back

[Genie]

Well,
I guess that since I threw the first clump of mud back at Jason, I should try to end the slinging as well.

Many excellent points have been brought up by other members and by you Jason.  But, this topic really should be put to bed once and for all because it is really getting old.  As Dan stated, these posts have been hashed out for years and the circuits in question have only been getting bigger.  So, in their case, the business model is working and yours is not.

I am a tournament director - and no I am not going to tell you what I make per tournament ... for that matter, no other director will either.  Get over it!

I know, have fished against you more times than I can count and I respect that you are an excellent fisherman.  Knowing that I also would suspect that you just don't enter tournaments for "the good of the competition".  I don't either.  I enter to win.  I always know that when I enter a tournament that you are in that I better bring my "A" game.   

I know you say that your comments are really for the good of tournament angling and that payouts should be posted, etc.  I don't understand when you say you don't know what the payouts are ... every tournament I run and pretty much all the ones I fish state with a megaphone or a scream at the time of payout what the place, weight, and payout are ON THE SPOT.  But again, I know you.  You fish tournaments to win - to make money.  I'm sorry, you are NOT going to make enough money fishing these tournaments.  I'll give you a free copy of The Angler's Genie so you can track your expenses to prove it to yourself.

So, getting on to more positive things.  I started tournament fishing because I love to fish and have fished my entire life.  I used to play sports competitively, but can't anymore because of too many injuries, but that competitive desire is still there.  So, I combined the 2 and started fishing tournaments.  It took me many years to actually win money at a tournament and I was absolutely sitting on cloud 9 that night.  I thought I was the man!!  I was unbeatable .... well, that feeling didn't last long, but the confidence and joy did.

Well, over the years since then I have had some success so I can't complain.  But I have to keep telling myself what it is that I am doing ... I am fulfilling 2 passions by tournament fishing and not trying to balance my check book. 

I just don't believe that you are making statements about payout for the "good of the angling community".  I think deep down you want to be paid better when you do well.  And you probably should because you are a very good angler and you are at the top in many tournaments!

The tournament trails you are commenting about, unfortunately are not created for that reason.  These tournaments are created so anglers can enjoy something they love, hang out with buddies, compete, fulfill whatever it is that keeps them coming back, and yes - to get paid .... all so they can rub it in their buddies' faces at the next tournament.  Fair compensation is definitely a part of paid competition.  I think the majority of the tournament anglers you are trying to defend fell they are being treated fairly.

If you want more money - go fish the bigger tournaments.  As Dan says, those circuits have a business model that supports your goal.  The ones you are commenting about do not.

-Genie
Proud NBAA Tournament Director 

[silverminnow]

Hey Genie,

Thanks for your post.  I to am an NBAA director and proud of it.  I started my division to fish lakes closer to home and to allow anglers from beginners to experienced a local tournament where they can come and have a great time.  Any angler I know that is fishing weeknight tournaments will tell you that they spend more than they make even with first place.  Especially with gas prices, insurance, boat payments and etc... 

I don't direct my tournament to make money. The little that I do make has always gone back into my tournaments, ramp fees(up until this year) and into making my tournament trail the best it can be.  If I showed you the money that I spend versus what I make to run the tournament you would have me committed.  Again, it isn't about the money that I run a tournament and at least for my anglers it isn't about the amount of money that they win it is the good time, the competition and the camaraderie.  I have a couple of anglers that have never won money and they come back year after year because they love to fish and have a great time. 

I agree with you that if you are looking for a paycheck, the bigger tournaments are where you want to be.  With that being said I fish the bigger circuits as well.  I am not the best guy out there but I am always getting better by watching and listening and trying new things.  I haven't broke even in the big tournaments either but I keep going back because I love it.

In the end no matter what trail you are fishing they all cost money to run.  I know the NBAA puts alot of money back into their members with the classic, the magazine, the give aways, the dinners at the classics and much, much more.  Guys if you are that concerned about the money don't fish these small tournaments.  Look at the other end of the spectrum.  How about the guy that never wins and knows that when certain anglers are there they probably won't.  They don't complain about you taking their money when you when and if they don't keep showing up then their money won't matter anymore and the payouts will be less because you have no more boats.

With extreme respect I would say, If you need the money you win that badly maybe you should work overtime or get a second job or fish bigger tournaments with the big money and leave the average angler alone to lose money and have fun. 

Thanks again Genie and hopefully we can put this on going controversy to rest.

A second proud NBAA director

[Jason Ammerman]

I don't know how you think this was a bash nbaa post. I fish every tournament that comes to the west side of Michigan Shoreline, BBT, Bass Anglers United, Top Bass, NBAA, BFL, FOX 101.3, Super Bass, and more. They all have the same problem. But after reading all the post I guess I know why. WE LET THEM DO IT AND ARE FINE WITH IT!

I will put it to rest.

If any of you feel the same way I do keep posting maybe some one will read these post and change something.

I don't feel that not talking about it is the way to fix the problem.

And I will take that copy of angler genie and I will pay for it.

[LGMOUTH]

 I don't want to get into the middle of this but there are a few things that need to be said.

First there is a difference between 70, 80,90 or 100% payouts and 70,80,90 or 100% payout at the ramp. Most tournament curcuits that I checked on payout 70% at the ramp. They payout ano ther 10 to 20% at there classics or fishoffs which make them a 80 or 90% payout tournament trail. I checked out the BFL, BBT and yes NBAA which I am a director, and they all payout roughy 70% at the ramp. That extra 20% for the classics is well worth it on any tournament trail. If we are paying roughly 10% of our entry fees to have great directors (like me) and great tournament trails like the ones I have stated above, Thats great. If your going to complain about the 70% payback at the ramp then you should look at the bigger picture. If you dont want to fish a classic then maybe these trails including the BFL, BBT, and NBAA shouldnt be on you priority list. It also doesnt mean that we should complain about these tournaments because they dont cater to our every need or wants.

And as for not knowing what you are fishing for, In NBAA the tournament director dont know how much is getting payed out until the last team is signed in which in most cases is about 5 to 10 minutes before you launch. And in any NBAA tournament or any tournament for that matter that I have been to all you have to do is ask ahead of time and you will get your answer. Also if you listen at weighin tournament directors say what place and how much each team gets. Then you can add it up yourself.

We all know it costs alot of money to fish and to run a well organized tournament trail. Why do we complain about things that we don't totally understand. Who pays for 100 to 150 or more sets of scales, who pays for the permits that we have all had to get, who pays for all of those weighin bags, who pays for all of the gas put in the cars to go get those product or cash sponsors, who pays for the airline tickets to travel to who knows where to talk to 10 sponsors and only get 1, who pays for the time spent doing all of this and 1000 more things so that you can fish a tournament. There is a lot more into running a big organized tournament trail than paying out 100% of the money.

I for one am glad to pay any tournament director, boat check person, weigh master, Bump board guy, person that rights down weights, check in person, person that releases the fish, the computer programmer that makes the results website, the organization or what ever or who ever is involved , for the chance to have fun and compete with the rest of you without any problems like we would have if all of these people werent there.

As it has been said time and time again, If you dont like it, dont fish it.

[BryanP]

Jason, posting on here isn't going to change the business model for NBAA, CATT, ABA, BASS, FLW/BFL, or anyone else.  I guess if you think a 100% payback at the ramp is feasable, and it can be run as well as an NBAA, CATT, BASS, FLW/BFL, etc...  then do it!

[Jason Ammerman]

You guys don't get what I am trying to point out. I have no problem paying to fish. I would not do it FOR free. But what is wrong with knowing wear your money is going. And what to expect before you pay the entry fee. The Super Team, FOX 101.3, BFL, and Top Bass all have a Sample Pay Back to show You.

I have a feeling that if most of the guys knew what the real deal was they would start to ask more questions.

AGAIN I AM NOT BASHING JUST NBAA. You NBAA guys are the ones getin bent out of shape on this deal.(WHY)

[LGMOUTH]

 I guess We just dont understand why you would put out a sample payout for 200 boats when there wouldnt be any chance to reach 50. But I guess if you cant figure it out I guess this might help.

PAYOUT based on 90 boats
1st 639
2nd 289
3rd 176
4th 143
5th 119
6th 99
7th 95
8th 88
9th 82
10th 75
11th 68
12th 62
13th 55
14th 51
15th 44
16th 42
17th 40
18th 38

add it up 70% at the ramp       based on 35dollars entry fee.

[silverminnow]

Hey Jason,

I am not bent out of shape.  I guess I could do a sample pay back for my guys.  I wouldn't know an exact until we launch based on the number of boats that show up.  For instance, if I have 15 boats, I pay down 3 spots.  1st place would be $184.00, 2nd place would be $110.00 and 3rd place would be $74.00.  This is based on the $35.00 entry fee for the tournament only.  Big bass and the divisional classic fund make up the other $7.00 for the total of $42.00 to fish my weeknight tournament.  These are last years pay outs from June 5, 2006.  I also make sure that I announce how much each place is getting as I announce the winners in that spot so that all of the other anglers know the money is getting back into the hands of the anglers in the right amounts.  I hope this helps as a sample of what you are looking for.

[djkimmel]

Well - there you go. Isn't that all we really ever get on all those flyers and applications?

I don't think anyone is bent out of shape. I do think some of us are tired of the same old tired topic every winter on bass tournament forums all over the place (up north anyway).

I think most guys who have been around know the score for the tournaments they choose to fish - and that is the real point - they choose to fish the various tournaments and circuits.

It always comes down to the same answer - find the circuits/tournaments that meet your need and fish them. There are plenty out there. That's why there are plenty out there. Something for everyone.

It makes a lot more sense to find all the choices that do meet your needs than trying to change the ones that don't meet your needs when they WON'T be changing. They are obviously meeting many anglerss needs, which is working for them.

I don't blame any tournament director for being sensitive, particularly when you are obviously the leading everyman circuit at the moment - you are going to attract lots of attention, and it won't all be good.

There is a competition among circuits for your business and some circuits make the same mistake some anglers do, trying to force one thing to happen when all they have to do is decide who they want to attract and design a circuit that will meet those anglers' needs. If you run the right the circuit with the right setup, you'll attract your share.

This is a bash free board - don't BASH ANYONE. State your opinion once, because everyone here is smart enough to get it the first time, and then move on. I think we'd get farther if instead of using examples of existing circuits - that most likely won't be changing - is to go at this kind of topic from a future wish list instead of a past-oriented 'why do they do it that way' post. Maybe someone will think - hey, there's a market for that kind of circuit, and they'll start a new one to meet your need?

Lets give this topic a breather. It has been beaten so much the past few years, I'm having serious deja vu - the names have changed, but the words are all the same. I don't want it to turn personal or into outright bashing. I'd suggest the future circuit wish list approach on another thread.