Blinded me with Science

[t-bone]

Joe Balog on bed fishing and actually using and listening to scientific results - http://www.bassfan.com/opinion_article.asp?ID=1360

Spoiler Alert - bed fishing didn't hurt

[DeanV]

Good study, but there are more studies in the north with our type of lakes and seasons that cast doubt for us compared to results on Florida, as he mentioned in the article.

[t-bone]

Our lakes up here are protected and off limits due to ice for 3-6 months of the year. Wouldn't bed fishing be a bigger issue in the south since they don't get any relief from pressure.

What are these recent studies that I should read?

Good study, but there are more studies in the north with our type of lakes and seasons that cast doubt for us compared to results on Florida, as he mentioned in the article.

[djkimmel]

Good question because there are ZERO studies that show harm to bass populations due to fishing bass ANY time of the year especially when you consider the high voluntary live release rate bass anglers practice across our state.

The one Illinois study being touted now didn't prove anything. It said we might be changing genetics (they really like doing studies in that group in Illinois that look at things like the 'harm' of catch-and-release bass fishing though their studies usually still show no correlation to population level harm). I would simply ask where the harm is we've done in 45 years of fishing 70% of the Michigan bass spawn legally under harvest since we changed opening day to Memorial weekend BEFORE the bass spawn way back in 1970?

I sure don't see it. The MDNR admits our bass fishing is very good to excellent now partly because of exotics and possible seasonal average warming trends. There is no end to this in sight and I sure don't believe in limiting anglers because some pie in the sky thing 'might' happen. You manage and react to and for things that actually happen. Anything 'might' happen. And anything 'might not' happen. It seems like chicken little to me to manage for things that might happen verses things that actually are happening.

It's a waste of fishing opportunity and economic boost disguised as uncertainty in essence to control the number of bass tournaments not to manage our bass resources.

[djkimmel]

Here's the latest study I've seen on Northern bass populations and spring bass fishing from New York. Year-Class Production of Black Bass Before and After Opening of a Spring Catch-and-Release Season in New York: Case Studies from Three Lakes

Shows no affect on the populations on multiple lakes due to spring bass fishing including some bass tournament activity and harvest. I keep seeing this result from multiple studies including another one from Florida just finished. North and South the same results keep coming up - no negative correlation to bass recruitment and population due to bass fishing, especially under the conditions that exist in our era - high voluntary catch-and-release ethic.

[DeanV]

There have been plenty of studies linked to conversations about this the the topic comes up.  There are books summarizing the studies as well.

Two good books to get are:

http://fisheries.org/bookstore/all-titles/afs-symposia/x54031xm/

http://www.amazon.com/Centrarchid-Fishes-Diversity-Biology-Conservation/dp/1405133422



The study posted by Dan in the post above does look like a good one for your position and I am glad to read it and include in conjunction with the studies that cast doubt one the wisdom of targeting bass immediately pre-spawn or during the spawn.  It is important to look at all the studies, ones that support and do not support our own positions.

What bothers me is when I see you guys here post that there is no data or studies that cast doubt on the effects of angling.  When I reviewed as much stuff as I could plus the knowledge I had when I studied the behavior of spawning bass in the field, I arrived at the conclusion that at the very least, catch and keep and catch and delayed release of bass around the spawning period is not wise.  Particularly for smallmouth bass. 

Sure, spawning bass are not fully protected by our current season.  But, that does not mean that we should have less protection.  The overall trend of the research I have seen says we should exercise caution. 

[djkimmel]

That's a very weakly supported caution by a very few scientists. I think you may be confusing opinion a little bit with science too. An easy way for me to justify thinking that is that almost no state has a closed season protecting the spawn and very few states limit the spawn fishing. If there was a lot of evidence supporting your opinion we would see a lot more closures and spawning protection seasons.

Instead what we see lately is even more movement away from pretending we need to protect the spawn to protect bass populations because more scientists are admitting that the correlation between bass populations and recruitment to spring bass fishing does not exist. It has been shown to be the opposite, and the few scientists trying to show a direct correlation have failed repeatedly.

It's fine to have a personal opinion that you don't like fishing the spawn or spring bass fishing but when the overwhelming science says these restrictions are unnecessary, AND there are anglers who want to fish more I know I will support them getting to fish more based on the known, available science rather than limiting opportunity because of 'social science,' opinion and personal preferences of some anglers.

The overriding factors that affect bass populations are not manageable by fishing regulations, and many are not manageable by us humans at all. Limiting opportunity for the reasons some people want it limited is a waste of opportunity, and not fair to the anglers who know the true, available science and real world experience of the majority of the other states.

People can deny it all they want but we don't live in a bass vacuum, and people who know better know that most other states have a longer bass season than us even when they don't have anywhere near the vast resources we are blessed to have.

Until I see a bunch of other states' bass populations collapsing and real studies showing real results - not maybe's that haven't happened even in our 45 years of bass spawn fishing experience in Michigan - I will support the anglers who want more bass fishing opportunity to get their fair share ignoring the people who want to think this might happen or that might happen so lets be afraid and not change anything.

That is harmful and bad for fishing. More so than any risk more bass fishing might bring. We can always react to what actually DOES happen in the future with regulations but to withhold great opportunity because something that hasn't happened yet or before might happen is a waste of resources.

We will be pushing Adaptive Management for bass management in Michigan because you can successfully manage complex populations and learn by doing using an Adaptive Management approach as they have for managing the Florida bass fishery and to great success managing the national waterfowl populations.

The only way for some people to see the waste we've given up is for those of us who want more fishing to take the assaults that arise from unwarranted fears and push for the changes. Once the changes occur and no great collapse follows we can all be happy later as we were after the 1970 change to open bass Memorial weekend, after the 1990's test season showed no change to bass populations fished CIR in April and May, and after no bad population changes have occurred since we've had legal CIR statewide in April and May.

Probably the biggest issue we will face is people having problems because we no longer want to wait 10 years between each change now that we have learned that other options to change faster exist that are tried and tested, such as Adaptive Management.

[DeanV]

IL, WI, PA, MN, NY, VT, NH, Ontario, protect bass during spawn.  Some include protection until late and very end of June.  Smallmouth are protected in particular.  Ontario is included since they have lakes at same latitude as Michigan lakes. Ontario also has a size limit of 13.8" from December 1 through June 30.  They are a prime example of new regulations based on the best science available.

OH has no seasons, just size limits.  They only recently added a size limit period.  Due to small size and low numbers of bass they went to a 12" minimum.

IN, MA, CT has no season.

Maine: No season, 10" minimum, only 1 over 14" with 2 fish limit

As we learn more, it becomes particularly clear that smallmouths should be protect until the spawn is complete and probably even prior to the spawn.  This is not opinion or "social science."  This is backed up by excellent studies including one of the longest running and most in-depth studies on any population of any species in the world that is on-going on smallmouth bass.  An absolute treasure trove of information on smallmouth bass.  My view based on research I have read over the years is that for smallmouth bass in particular, angling regulations should at a minimum be catch and immediate release until  the spawn is complete.  Due to larger and more success spawners often being earlier spawners, at least have the first part of the spawn protected is better than nothing.  I do believe there is more room for research in this area, but signs are pointing strongly in this direction. 

I do agree that some oppose more liberal seasons because they are against tournaments, but from everything I have read when people talk about why they oppose the changes, that is a minority position.  Most are not influenced by tournaments.  The majority of the "social science" reasons to change are on the side of tournament anglers, not the other way around.

There is no good reason to push forward with more changes to our seasons given the changes made just last year and the current data we have available.  It not justified scientifically and it is not justified for social reasons of wanting more opportunity.  The resource comes first, not our desires for more opportunity as fisherman.  We do not make widespread changes and then adjust.  We should gather the data first and do the studies first, not make changes and see what happens down the road.  To propose that some of our best waters be used as guinea pigs is irresponsible at best when the current state of science says the proposals are a bad idea.

[djkimmel]

Those are the same arguments I've been hearing and watch fall the they wayside for decades. We should take it slow. We should be very careful...

Meanwhile, our bass are doing great anyway and we keep losing more anglers every year so that we have less licensed anglers now by about 30% than we did when we first started pushing for season changes 30+ years ago. We have less anglers so that's less impact on our bass already by a large margin.

We need to be a lot more concerned about providing maximum opportunity to make up for the loss of anglers and loss of fishing economy than we do about the worry about some perceived but never happening negative affect to bass populations. We can provide more opportunity and react with different regulations if and only when something negative actually happens.

It's the weakest argument of all to think we can't react fast enough to keep bass healthy when bass are a renewable resource, with a 60-93% voluntary release rate already and bass are known to produce an excess of new bass very well.

I say to anyone who doesn't want to fish more and feels they need to 'protect' the resource to keep feeling that way and don't fish, but get out of my way because I know better. I talk to biologists every week who laugh at the way we treat our fishery as if the bass are magically different that other bass anywhere else.

It's also well known that using fixed seasons to 'protect' the spawn is unsuccessful in most cases because the spawn is not the same time every year everywhere. Again, you aren't protecting the whole spawn or even most of the spawn. Believing that the spawn needs protection is another thing people who don't know any better are just getting in the way of more economy from our fishing and more opportunity. I, and others who know better, have to overcome this bad and erroneous belief so we can improve fishing opportunity and economy to make up for the great loss of anglers we have already suffered due to changing beliefs and conflicting activities.

Adaptive Management done right is the answer for our bass because it does not use anything as a guinea pig. That's just another common excuse used by people who don't want us to fish more. It will happen and then you and others will see that you have given up opportunity for nothing all these years. And then you'll know why the majority of the states don't have closed seasons or 'protect' the spawn.

[djkimmel]

You have more inaccurate information you are spreading.

Illinois allows bass fishing ALL year. It only has a closure on streams because of a weak study that showed POSSIBLE negative harm to their stream bass from spring fishing. They never proved the connection but they have some scientists who are notorious for showing maybes without direct correlation and then they act on it sometimes though they also do not show a direct improvement from acting on it. Bad science period.

Both Wisconsin and Minnesota open their bass seasons BEFORE the spawn. There closures are based on the idea that it is too cold (ridiculous of course) to fish earlier than they start. Minnesota DNR even had language on their website explaining the biology of bass and the unnecessity of not fishing during the spawn. You can find it easy and in the case of BOTH smallmouth and largemouth bass they say the spawn does not need to be protected for bass to successfully hatch enough bass to keep the populations healthy. Minnesota is even trying to fight the seasonal warming that is probably causing smallmouth bass to become more numerous over walleye by making it even easier for anglers to kill more bass earlier. Considering most anglers still practice catch-and-release of bass, other than causing intra-angler problems, I don't expect them to be very successful in their actions.

Pennsylvania and New York both allow legal fishing during the spawn and even some limited harvest of big bass. The new New York study has already been shared. It shows the bass are actually doing better since the changes - BECAUSE other factors are much more important and prevalent in why are bass fishing gets better or worse than fishing - the primary reason we are giving up opportunity for nothing by thinking unnecessarily conservative because something bad might happen (that hasn't happened in 45 years in Michigan).

Ontario has already added 1 more week to spring fishing in some of their regions and is now talking about possibly adding more because others have stopped unnecessarily using closed seasons for protection that is not biologically necessary.

Vermont allows some spring fishing I believe on Champlain to match New York. They aren't 'protecting' all of the spawn. New Hampshire still allows CIR fishing from May 15 to June 15 and fishing all of the rest of the year with a reduced creel in the spring. Again, trying to protect the spawn with calendar days is never going to protect a lot of the spawn because the spawn is variable. Not much 'protection' there.

You can say there's protection but since most used fixed dates and several key ones open BEFORE the spawn it's a weak argument. And the reason it is weak is because they all know the truth about why closed seasons for bass and seasons to 'protect' the spawn are not necessary.

But like us they are dealing with social issues from anglers who don't know any better. It seems hard for some of them to tell the truth about bass biology and studies to anglers publicly. Luckily, the science is so overwhelming and most states do not have closed season so that more anglers are coming around to the waste of opportunity for no reason other than because some non-biologists think it is necessary.

[DeanV]

I do consider catch and immediate release seasons to be a form of protection for bass.  I am not spreading inaccurate  information.  Champlain is catch and release into mid june for both VT and NY.

Again, to reiterate, I do believe that smallmouth appear to be more sensitive than largemouth bass to potential risks from fishing during the spawning season.

Fishing regulations during the spawn may not be the main variable but they are definitely a variable that needs to be considered, and one of the few that we can have any control over.  While the spawn date is variable, it can be reasonable protected for the vast majority of years with fixed dates.  Sure, as climate changes occur, they may need to be update periodically but not that frequently.  Also, there is reason to believe that protecting the earliest portion of the spawn is the most important portion.  There are documented spawning behavior difference between bass in the north and the south (in the south, they are more likely to respawn if they lose a brood which is likely driven by the longer spawning season, for example).

For the NY study you posted, there is some good info in that study, but due to not having a proper control group, no conclusion can really be drawn specifically about the impact of angling on spawning bass.

I hope I am not coming across as argumentative and rude.  You seem to be greatly bothered by people who disagree with your views on this.  I did not realize that this kind of conversation would be so poorly received here.  So, unless I am completely misreading your tone, I will consider myself done with the conversation at your website. 

[robhj]

It seems to me that there is good data that supports both sides of this issue. I am grateful to all involved with getting our bass season changed for year round CIR. I also fish tournaments but understand the need to protect our fisheries as much as possible. I remember viewing a video from MUCC I believe a few years ago that showed a guy catching a smallie off her bed and then releasing the fish right away to have it swim right back to the bed as if to say, "see, no harm done." I remember thinking that if that video was done in small part to show that fishing during the spawn had no negative effect, it was incredibly inaccurate. If the video showed someone catching a fish off her bed, then putting the fish in the livewell and driving around for 6 hrs, then releasing the fish 1-2 miles away & showing it swim back to the bed, then it would have been a better argument. I understand the point being made that our bass fishing is better now than than ever before. I fished a tourney last year in June during the spawn & took a 5 pounder off her bed which later died even though every effort was made to keep her alive. I believe 5-7 other large bass died during that tourney as well and I'm sure other fish suffered from delayed mortality. That tourney was on Hubbard before the new state record was caught in October so I can see how people, myself included, could think that fishing during the spawn has minimal effect on the bass fishery. I've fished that lake for many years and it has always been a great smallie lake and obviously has been able to handle the pressure. I really don't have an opinion either way about a catch & delayed release season to allow for more tourneys, but with CIR open year round why not have it both ways? Why couldn't there be a tourney run before the catch & keep season opener? You could have MLF style tournaments, which allows earlier & later tourneys for people because of the new year round CIR bass season AND have greater protection of the resource. Sure you would have to make some minor changes to the format but it could be done. Really the only thing stopping someone would be if they didn't have a phone that could take pics or videos. Last year I did a tournament with a bunch of my family members. We all put $10 in a pot and fished all day for the biggest 7 fish from each boat. Every fish we caught was weighed on a digital scale, picture taken showing weight, and immediately released. Each boat wrote down the weight of their 7 biggest & weights were compared at the end of the day. Why couldn't this same format be used in a tournament held in April? I'm not saying that both sides of this issue shouldn't continue to have a debate on the data currently available, but I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around how the current regs decrease my opportunity as an angler. Please don't take this as a slam on anyone fighting to have a catch and delayed release season, but I feel being able to fish year round for bass was a monumental change and shouldn't be overshadowed by the current debate regarding catch & delayed release. It's great to have a forum to be able to learn from one another and have some good discussion regarding bass fishing.

[djkimmel]

This is for everyone reading, not just a few.

My beliefs are simple and backed by reality. Our fishing has gotten better BECAUSE of factors not in our control most likely most smart scientists believe. Those factors show no abatement meaning our fishing will stay as good as it is or even get better regardless of fishing pressure and more intelligent fishing ability. Even the Michigan DNR admits this. We've already seen that happening now for over 30 years of steadily improving fishing.

We are wasting opportunity and resources debating factors that are not important enough to outweigh the real factors driving our continuing better bass fishing. Factors that show no sign of going away. And most bass anglers continue to release most of their bass voluntarily even getting pounded on socially if they dare to keep a few bass. CIR gone too far, so far that we worry about meat hunters that more science shows us don't exist in the numbers some anglers fear so much, they say.

We live in a state where is has been okay to not like bass tournament anglers. To somehow believe that they are fundamentally different from all other anglers including all other tournament anglers. So negatively that it is EASY to deny them extra opportunity as they have been denied 3 times now in 3 major bass season changes. Oh, but we can still fish as long as we don't have regular weigh ins even though there is zero science behind us needing to change the way we enjoy our sport...

We recently said as a state we want scientific management of our fish and wildlife not social management (what people think verses what science shows). I intend to get my good friends who are as good a people as I know in any other walk of life more fair fishing opportunity to fish the way they want to fish NOT the way some other people tell us we should fish, based on real science not pseudo-social science practiced by too many couch 'biologists' who frankly do not care if bass tournament anglers get anything else, would probably like to see bass tournaments limited even more though there is no scientific reason that needs to happen.

We have lost 30% of our licensed anglers over the past few decades meaning less fishing than ever in this state and yet I'm supposed to believe that some people are really worried about too much bass fishing pressure while fishing days and angler numbers drop?!? Yeah right. I'm worried about too few anglers fishing too few days to the point where the scary 'social' science comes more into play meaning the people who don't want us to fish at all! We are headed that way as people become overprotective for non-science reasons, and we see anglers fighting anglers, and hunters fighting hunters, doing the dirty work for the people who would like to see our sports end.

These people are real, organized and have more money than us. They also have more people who don't care about hunting and fishing on their side potentially so 'easy' targets like bass tournament fishing become the first type of fishing to attack. And easy too when the main attacks come from other anglers (doing that dirty work for them) calling us special interests who want to wipe out the bass for our selfish reasons when all we want to do is what any other avid angler or hunter wants - we want to fish our way as much as possible, and we know the real science and real world bass biology is on our side.

Other people don't have to accept it for it to be true but frankly if you're an angler and/or hunter who doesn't see the real threats to our sport coming down the road as our numbers steadily dwindle you need to completely reevaluate why you feel the way you do, and why you put your emphasis on the wrong things. Period.

Now, I'm going to get back to protecting the real future of our sport, and the includes getting more people fishing their ways (not the ways some people think they should) more often. Because our fisheries resources can handle it and we don't even had to plant millions of bass like they plant of 20 million other fish to subsidize valuable fisheries.

And while I'm at it what would be wrong if they had to start stocking bass to subsidize more fishing opportunity some people want to have? They do it for a whole bunch of other fisheries and the bass fishery is the most valuable fishery in Michigan with over 1.8 milling anglers days, more than any other type of fish including panfish. Of course, it used to be even bigger for Michigan anglers and almost as big for out-of-state anglers.

It will probably grow a little bit now that CIR is open all year. Because we have both the water and bass resources to handle it. It may grow some with resident fishing too because as other types of fishing becomes less productive some people target more available fish. Like bass. And what is wrong with that. Nothing. After all, we have the water and bass resources and luckily bass are not harvest fish like salmon, trout, walleye, pike and panfish, the other significant fisheries.

So people are worried about too much bass fishing yet we are down the number of licensed anglers 30% over the past 30 years... I ask any couch biologists how much bass fishing is too much? Don't know, do ya? Of course not but I can still go to lots of lakes around Michigan that have bass and often be the only trailer in the lot, or one of just a few so we must not be maxed out yet... Even Lake St. Clair I ask every year if bass are being fished too much and the scientists there can't tell me yes or no, but they admit considering how well the bass are doing there apparently the bass can handle the amount of fishing opportunity going on there too.

So give up your own fishing if you want to because you think you need to or might have to but it is not what's best for the sport to give up opportunity for no good reason. What's best for the sport if more people fishing more often. I intend to help like-minded people get that opportunity. We had an unscientific closed season for a hundred years with nothing to show for it but lost opportunity. We are dragging our feet kicking and screaming about protecting the bass while most states allow their bass anglers to fish all year and most states allow tournament all or most of the year with almost no states closing their spawn to bass tournaments.

We have the richest water resources and we are the most stingiest. I get it. People who have the most tend to want to keep it to their-selves. But I learned a long time ago that is just selfish thinking, and it's not good for fishing or hunting to withhold opportunity because you don't want someone else to get it. It has to stop, and it has to stop taking 10 years for every baby step it takes us to move into what other states call modern bass biology.

[robhj]

Again I ask, what opportunity am I giving up? As an avid bass fisherman I have seen my angling opportunity expand, not decrease. You seem to be more upset over the fact that you can't fish in tournaments and keep bass in the livewell before the catch & keep season opener. I suppose that is something that we're giving up, but I merely pointed out a way that a tourney could be done without the need to keep fish in the livewell. You stated that it's "not good to withhold opportunity." I agree, but that opportunity has been expanded and I'm sure everyone on this website is thankful for that and thankful to you for working so hard to help get year round CIR. Keep fighting to get catch and delayed release, but in the meantime, go out and have a CIR tourney at a local lake and pee off all the people who don't like bass tournament anglers.

[djkimmel]

Don't take my words personally as just meaning you. You just happened to be the last person to post before me. I've been really sensitive about this topic lately because of a handful of people on the Internet on various websites telling me we're selfish, or don't care about the bass first, or we should change how we do tournaments because they think we should, and I'm tired of it. Really tired.

There's no reason we need to change, especially just because some people think we should. If it happens, it will happen in its own time because the majority want it to happen but meanwhile we are not harming bass populations doing it the way we are doing it.

I'm not happy that 3 times we have changed the bass season in a major way through a great deal of effort and still gained ZERO new bass tournament opportunity. That isn't right.

I'm tired because it has been okay for my entire adult life for some people to dislike bass tournament anglers when I know tons of bass tournament anglers and they run the same gamut of personality types as in any other 'type' of fishing.

I'm tired of pretending Michigan lives in a bass vacuum, so it doesn't matter what other states do (unless it serves the purpose of withholding bass tournament opportunity of course). With the Internet and everyone knowing what everyone else does this is probably the most ridiculous thing to say and do of all. It causes hard feelings that are not good for fishing.

The only reason we can't have more bass tournaments more often, which would be good for those anglers and for the Michigan economy, is because some people don't like us and don't want us to be out there more. Not because of bass biology and science. We'll eventually get more fishing opportunity after one or two more big, useless fights, and many more years of wasted opportunity, and then we can be happy finally that we got more bass fishing opportunity too, and eventually the haters will move on with their lives too when the world doesn't come to an end. I'm just tired of the idea of how hard it has to be and how long it takes because of some people.

[djkimmel]

We should have gotten a longer bass tournament season this last time for sure, and probably would have if the anti-hunters hadn't caused the authority of who could change regulations to become confused giving our small but vocal opposition more time to prepare their fights about how we're a special interest that doesn't deserve more fishing or special treatment. blah blah blah. I've heard the same old arguments a hundreds times now for 30 years.

None of it has to do with what is good for fishing, the economy and all anglers.

Almost 30 years ago I got ambushed at a lake association meeting by lies telling me there wouldn't be a vote that mattered. The lake association just wanted to talk to me about their lake being part of the test season study. Instead, they held a vote and I got beat however many from the lake association to 1 (me) because I was told it was not a public meeting and I didn't need to bring helpers.

Because the lake association was against their lake having more bass fishing the local State Rep. also showed up and told me he would oppose it too but then he looked at all of them and said this young man is right and some day we will have more bass fishing regardless. So maybe not now but someday it will happen.

I would like that someday of fair bass fishing opportunity for all bass anglers INCLUDING my tournament angler friends who want a longer bass tournament season to be in my lifetime. It's a shame it has taken so long already. What a loss of opportunity for the anglers who want it. And deserve it too. I feel their frustration and anger over this.

[TheFishinPollock]

After spending 25 years fishing northern lakes, above bay city, predominatly in tournments. There really is no damage done to the fisheries up here during catch and keep. It really does keep getting better. Now that is not to say I would personaly like to see year round C&K, but adding one month and making it CDR is not going to hurt a dang thing.  We start our tournment season either at the beginnging of spawn or smack dab in the middle of it depending on April's weather. WE ARE cdr'ing bedding fish. Simple as that.

This  MLF fishing idea is great in theory. Who is going to pay for the technology, an offical per boat and for me personaly, a bigger boat that can handle 3 people? Not me. I dont fish in the pros with sponsors helping foot the bills. Club events are anywhere from 50 to 300 per event. That is not even close to cover the amount of money it would take to do this.

Paper events. Yea NO. I don't turst anyones guesstimate on weight off a board that guesses the average weight of a fish at a certain length according to a board . I want to see that fish weight on a certified scale. This is money I pay into the pot and guessing is not accurate in any means ever. We dont fish tournments for hopes and smiles .

I see more fish in events die in the high summer months due to poor care in a livewell.  But yet it still has not harmed, destroyed, impeaded the fishing in northern michigan. If it did there wouldn't be so many shows, articles, guides putting people into massive numbers of fish in this region. It simply would not happen and trust me  . Any givin launch , be it on an inland chain or GT bay has at least 10 to 20 bassboat trailers in it every day up here.

IF a extra month of CDR  or year round C&R or standard practice tournments would destroy the fisherie. Then why is the bass fishign up here so damm good???


Studies done in other states are a good way to garnish IDEAS of how to conduct our own studies. THAT'S IT. Our lakes are vastly different from Ill or IN or NY or ohio or any other state you can think of.   Untill we start conducting studies of our own , in our own state, on our own waters. We don't know squat!. Do the studies, get some information that actual biologists can use to make determinations on how we proceed with our bass seasons .

I have been with Dan on this idea since he spoke of it to me and will continue to do so untill the bitter end.

[djkimmel]

The problem with our OWN studies is the MDNR says they are too hard, long and expensive to do one right so we have to go somewhat by what other states or researchers have done but regardless we have 45 years of experience fishing the bass spawn under HARVEST in Michigan since 70% of our bass spawn happens after our present bass season opens.

Yeah, it's a shame we are forced to hold all of our season beginning bass tournaments ON TOP of the spawn EVERY year because people think we're protecting the spawn. Anyone who fishes bass knows that the first month to 6 weeks is a spawnfishing bonanza. It's a bad joke to talk about 'protecting' the spawn when our season takes advantage of the spawn opening BEFORE the Northern Michigan and Upper Peninsula bass spawn every year, and has opened before the bass spawn for 45 years. Where's the genetic harm? Where's the collapse of the bass fishery??

It would be nice to shift some of the bass tournament burden to prespawn fishing instead, especially up north. The way the most people could be kept happy is to allow CDR by permit and/or through the Michigan Fishing Tournament Information System.

I don't believe there are enough meat hunters to harm all our bass fisheries everywhere considering 60 to 93% already voluntarily release their bass now, more than enough to keep bass populations healthy with all the other factors that are affecting bass that are not affected by fishing regulations. Bass fishing regulations are effectively unsuccessful at making more or less good bass fishing according the researchers I've talked to because of the other larger factors. Possibly the only bass regulation that has helped make better bass fishing in Michigan is the change to the 14 inch size limit though there is no study to prove that. Other changes occurred about the same time that have also probably boosted bass populations.

I recognize there's a greater fear of 'meat hunters' than their numbers warrant. They already have the present season provide their ability to keep a few bass when they want to. Unless they come out in big numbers demanding a longer bass season there's no way I see that changing though regulations would be easier and more uniform if the regular bass season opened when the other game fish open - the last Saturday in April. That would kill some of the cries about appeasing a special interest we get right now when trying to get CDR only.

Meanwhile, the one state beating us in attracting out-of-state anglers is Florida, and they manage their bass with lots of exceptions to maximize bass tournaments in their state while still allowing other anglers to keep small bass, keep the occasional trophy and enjoy bass fishing year-round. They use Adaptive Management in their 10 year bass management plan so they don't have to do an expensive, long-term study every time they make a change. They learn by doing, and adjust accordingly as needed, and they are getting high marks for successfully managing their most popular gamefish.

[TheFishinPollock]

And it completely sucks that they wont spend a dime studying bass in our state, but yet spend millions studying other fish Dan.  I know this sticks in your craw as badly as it does mine.  Fair is fair. If you study one you must study others. But that has never been the case with our DNR. There are alot of changes that need to happen in this group in the way thy think and act. mismanagement has always been a porblem with our DNR. And then theres the NRC. God what a list we could compile there eh? LOL

[DeanV]

And it completely sucks that they wont spend a dime studying bass in our state, but yet spend millions studying other fish Dan.  I know this sticks in your craw as badly as it does mine.  Fair is fair. If you study one you must study others. But that has never been the case with our DNR. There are alot of changes that need to happen in this group in the way thy think and act. mismanagement has always been a porblem with our DNR. And then theres the NRC. God what a list we could compile there eh? LOL

Well, at least we can all agree that we need more research in this state.  Finally, some common ground!  It is sad when you look through the DNR site for lake surveys how rare and far between they are.  That is one of the reasons making these changes worries as well since I do not feel like the DNR has good enough data to evaluate anything.  I do not think there is a good handle on population structures and not good historical data to evaluate the most recent changes or future changes.