Flipping the thick stuff

[Fishmael]

Ok, here is a question for anyone who would like to provide some flipping wisdom.  Each year I focus on learning one new method.  Last year was crankbaits, which went very well.  This year will be flipping the thick stuff.  The problem I've had in the past is determining what is a bite where it just gets heavy and what is a bite.  How do you determine this?  I guess when I lift up and feel pressure, I don't want to let them spit it out, but don't want to swing on every weed in the lake.  Any insight would be helpful.

Thanks,
Fishmael.

[joshimoto son]

What an awesome technique to pick and try and perfect!
I wanna help you out, but I don't have much time today... work you know.
Specifically, what type of "thick stuff"?
Matted weeds on top, thick coon tail type stuff that stretched all the way down or heavy wood and brush?
I've gotten to learn from some VERY succesful "flippers" this year.

joshimoto son

[Cheetam]

I pitch more than I flip, but what is most helpful for me is watching my line.  Probably 75% or more of the bites I get come on the initial drop, so keeping a close eye on the line for any jumps, movement or stoppage of my bait is really key.  This also applies if you are letting your bait soak for awhile...watch your line for any movement.  You may not feel the bite, but, a lot of times you can see it.  Equipment wise, I am really confident using braid when flipping and pitching and find the low stretch to be really important for getting a good hook set and for keeping pressure on the fish (plus it's easier to see imo).  The only downside to flipping and pitching the nasty stuff is having to clean all the gunk off your boat at the end of the day...but, imo it's worth it  .

[Fishmael]

Thanks for the responses.  The type of cover I was referring to was both matted vegetation and also thick weeds that grow to the top.  I guess I want to get some info before I try it much more so I don't knock my head off with some 1 oz. weight that jerked out of the weeds a little too hard without a fish on the line!  So, I figured I would get the input from someone who had success with the method and try to get a jump-start on the technique. 

[Skip Johnson]

my specialty imo is flipping, Im from the west coast and theres a ton more flipping to be done there.
jcheetam hit some things right on the head especialy that most of your bites can or do come from the initial drop, if I pick up my slack from the initial drop and feel the least bit of resistance I set the hook before the fish feels me!
I like to give my worm or jig a vibrating shake with couple pauses right at the bottom more than a lift off the bottom, I usualy wont stay in that hole more than 15 seconds before I flip another side or hole, sometimes letting your jig stay in one spot too long is a waste of time.
to answer your question about how to tell if its a bite, its a feel and sense thing once youve had a couple good days of practice youl get it but basicaly if you lift and its heavy pulls or surges or sometimes you will feel or see a tick, other times you know your in 3 ft of water but it didnt seem to sink more than a foot, lift if its got pressure then swing, as they say hook sets are free.

when flipping I use a 7 1/2 ft heavy or medium hvy rod, I like to use 14 and 20lb trilene xt mono, I hate braid for flipping for a couple reasons first is if you get stuck and you most likeley will a bunch when flipping you have to go stir up that spot to retrieve your jig becouse you cant break it, alot of times I break off of a snag re tie flip back to that spot and pull out a fish, you cant do that with braid, its especialy frustrating if your co angler is pitching braid and gets hung up becouse you have to go back to get it rather than break it off or worse he pulls it so hard that it does come free and comes back and dings the engine cowling or gelcoat of your $40k boat or worse it hits you and all youl get is a sorry dude... arrrrrgh!!!!,
secondley sometimes I have my finger on the line when I set the hook and the braid realy cuts me alot worse than mono, I also like a little stretch that the mono gives when Im setting the hook with all that enthusiasum on short line, if it doesnt give a little you can tear the hook right out of the mouth or the hook actualy will strech open and you miss the fish.
I rareley break off using 14lb mono flipping grass reeds or wood,
I have a 20lb stick always tied up for flipping laydowns near rocks cables or boat docks.
speaking of boat docks I realy hate braid around boat docks its just too hard to break and in a tournament you cant step out of your boat to get it nor do you want the dock owner seeing you stepping onto his dock...not good
the only thing Ive liked braid for is flipping lilly pads becouse it will cut the stem much easier and braid works well throwing frogs and pulling the fish through the grass and you get a better hook set on a long cast.
just my oppinion about braid, you might like it and I know a few guys who do but if your a co angler youl soon see the disadvantages of braid especialy if you fish a tourney becouse all some boaters will offer is a pair of cutters especialy after retrieving a couple snags for you.
as far as a 1 ounce weight if your not punching through thick mats then Id recomend a 3/16 to 1/2 oz becouse your strike zone is on the fall and a 1 ounce falls too fast in most cases and use at least a 3/0 hook becouse anything less will straighten out or flex.

[Cy]

Fishmael,

I think you are about to teach yourself a great new skill and technique.  I learned how to pitch matted grass last year, mainly by trial and error and a lot of frustrating practice.

Fishing matted grass is something that you need to practice and figure out.  By figure out I mean exactly what you are asking about.  You need to figure what a bite feels like and what is just the weight of the bait and grass pulling against it.  I agree with Cheetam and Cast that you HAVE to be a line watcher.  I think this is a technique that requires a tremendous amount of concentration.  You have to be paying attention all the time.  Sometimes a fish will hit on the way down but you don't feel it, you just have to know how line it normally takes to get the bottom and if there is still some left set the hook.  Sometimes the fish will pick it up and swim with it and under a grass mat it can be hard to feel.  Sometimes you will feel the bit just like any other it always different.  With a little practice I think anyone can develop a feel for it.

I pitch mats with a 7' MH St Croix Legand Tournament Bass.  It is a heavy, medium heavy and I like it for this technique.  I use a older curado reel with 50 to 65lb PowerPro braid.  I like green, but I know someone that uses yellow for the visibility, and he will color the bottom few feet black with a marker.  I tie on a 3/4 to 1 oz tungsten weight and a 3/0 or 4/0 Gamakatsu Superline Hook.  The bait you use is up to you, I have had success on beaver style baits.  Mainly you want something that will slip through the mat without hanging up to much.

One thing I try not to do is to crash the mat unless I have to.  By crash the mat I mean throw the bait 20' in the air and let is crash into the mat and pop through.  I think it is disruptive to the fish under the mat and can scare them.  There are times when you have to crash mat to get through and those mat normally hold fish but I opt for the quiet pitch when ever possible.

I also agree that you should not linger in one spot to long I am constantly re-pitching to new parts of the mat.  With that in mind make sure you cover any one mat as complete as possible.   At times I will drop into the mat every 6 to 12 inches.  There are times that if you don't drop it on their head they will not eat it.

Lastly, as you figure this out...you are going to hit yourself, the boat and your buddies with an oz of tungsten once a while.  I think it is unavoidable.  Make sure you have your safety glasses on. 

Cy

[joshimoto son]

Cheetam and Cast n blast pretty much said it. I really wanna go to California and go flip some grass now.
My best learning experience flipping was on the Potomac River this year, and because I've never done it before I really missed out on a lot of fish.
The mats there were so thick that a 1-1/2 oz bullet was required. The techniques I witnessed were more of a "punching through" and then "feeding" the bait down.
Even with the 1-1/2 oz. the mat near low tide was so thick that you had to pitch the bait up and let it get a good head of steam to punch through. Then, we would slow it down and feed it line to the bottom.
I did not master this during my time there, and all of my bites but one came from the fish picking it off the bottom. The guys I fished with that knew how to do it were practically soiling themselves when they got a bite. The fish were literally hammering the baits on the fall.
I missed a lot of the same opportunity because my baits were rocketing right past them until they hit bottom.

Just to cover all the aspects, we were not dropping baits in the holes of the mats, the actual deal was to find the thickest part of the mat and punch through there.

When it comes to the weeds that go all the way up from the bottom and don't form a canopy. I usually like to throw a bait that will flutter down in the holes, like a senko or chigger craw. I don't do it that much because you will usually find me throwing a frog over the top of that stuff.

One last piece of advice I can give you is to go into that stuff, don't just skirt the edges, everybody and their brother has been though there.

I know Cheetam knows this because he talks about how much you can trash a boat with weeds and such. Yep, it's a pain in the rear, but it will be worth it.

joshimoto son

[dashaver63]

Cast-n-blast has some good points. Down here in Ohio, thats basically all there is, flipping and pitching. I do alot more pitching though, getting as far back into the thickest part of any cover. I too have been using mono or florocarbon, 17lb. to 20lb. test is sufficient. I know alot of guy's that swear by braid but use a floro leader in case they get hung up. But if you are flipping matted grass, weed or pads, braid is the way to go with a leader. It cuts the grass and pads alot better, all mono does is lets the weeds ball up on your line. If I'm flipping holes, 1/4oz. is as heavy as I go. Sometimes a fast falling bait will trigger reaction strikes. If I'm flipping mats, I'll go as heavy as an ounce and a quarter. One thing I like to do when flipping mats, once I punch the bait through the surface slop, (and I'll always use something with rattles), I shake the bait on the bottom a bit, then slowly raise the bait back to the surface of the weeds, but before I pull the bait back through, hold it there and shake it, it gives the bait an appearance that it's trying to escape and those bites are vicious, I've had 4 and 5lb. largies alomost yank the rod away from me. As far as my bait selection goes, If I'm flipping wood, jigs, tubes, senkos, beaver's. If it's weeds or pads, I use tubes, craw worms, 5in. senko's and I really like the Net Bait 5in. frog. Slender baits willl get through the slop alot better, plus you will want something to move some water, it's pretty dark under those mats and fish will pick up on the movement better. Oh, and for the most part, I use the tungsten bullet weights. They are more expensive, but you can feel the bottom better, they are louder when you contact wood or rocks, plus tungsten is smaller, it penetrates better. Just a couple thing I've picked up on over the years. Have fun with it, IMO there is nothing like pulling a hawg out of her living room. Oh, and thanks, here it is December and now I've got Cabin Fever worse than ever now just thinking about all this!LOL

[fish hound]

Pitching the thick stuff is my favorite way to catch em.  If the weeds are just to the top and not matted, I use a 1/2 oz on 65lb yellow power pro.  just color the last 2-3 feet with a big sharpie.  I throw this on a heavy action 7'6" kistler helium.  When they get matted, I'll go to a 3/4 - 1 oz tungsten on the same line with a 7'8" kistler magnesium.  Sometimes, especially when everyone is fishing the same stuff, you can actually do better going heavier with the weight than  you need to get through, more of a reaction bite.  

Watching your line is the biggest key, but sometimes they will pick it up without you knowing it.  Swing on anything that feels different. With the braid you don't have to swing too hard, but a lot of us do.  A big thing to remember, if you get hung on anything with braid is to pull straight on the line, don't load the rod up and it won't slingshot back at you like mono.

Imo the only hook for this type of fishing is the Reaction Innovations
BMF in a 5/0 size.  Its a straight shank hook, so I glue the bait to my weight after I peg it.  I have never staightened one, and the eye is welded shut so braid won't slip out.

Lastly, turn off your electronics, you won't see anything and I believe the noise can alert the fish.  Try to keep your TM from making too much noise, and use a push pole if you have to.

Good luck!

[Fishmael]

Thanks to everyone who replied.  This is all great information and will help put me ahead of the game when I go out and try this.  I can already see I was using too much weight in the past when the weeds were not matted on the top.  And for the cabin fever, yeah, I've got it bad already too.  Can't wait to set the hook on a big one.  I may need to sign up for a bfl down south or something if it gets much worse!

[dashaver63]

Bed fishing is the one thing I have never really done. Would love to give it a try somtime.

[Skip Johnson]

Bed fishing is the one thing I have never really done. Would love to give it a try somtime.

go to saginaw bay in late may early june and troll motor around the charities or north island looking at the bottom holding a jig ready to pitch youl learn realy fast

[dashaver63]

Sounds like a great time. I'll be fishing the BFL on Burt/Mullet. Hopefully I'll get a chance then.

[GotstaFish]

You can't mistake that "Tap, Tap, Tap"  Heres what we flip