Tonight's coffee and donuts meeting with the Michigan DNR

[TheFishinPollock]

Went to coffee and donuts with the DNR tonight.
Learned that muskie fishermen are 2 groups , line and spear and neither like the other. Trout fishermen in gt bays got hosed yet again by the NRC, and to help muskie populations in the lower antrim chain of lakes we should close torch river to all boating traffic during the spawn. That suggestion was some funny stuff.

As for the bass fishing, which I am most involved with. The suggestion was made to delay catch and keep season by a local guide, again, till mid July to " save our trophy fisheries" As I oppose this idea without compensation to tournament bass anglers for losing a month out of our 4-5 month tournament time frame in this state.
A total of 2096 events were held last year


The Biologists said that
1: no data suggests that keeping and or catch and delayed release of bedding bass affects anything but the bed they are on , which in the grand scheme of lake Michigan is not in any way detrimental to populations on that body of water.
2: It will be at least a year before Jim Dexter, fisheries manager, will make any kind of decision on this subject after collecting and analyzing all data collected from the Michigan Tournament Information System.
3: Some type of compensation will be given to bass tournament anglers if the catch and keep season is delayed until mid summer or the end of spawning activities.

You could see the disdain for the NRC from both biologists every time they were brought up. 

[dartag]

Great report.  Sounds like they had the same presentation as Waterford. 

[djkimmel]

Glad you went there! THANK YOU!! Especially for the great report. We have our work cut out for us to keep Northern Michigan smallmouth bass fishing from taking a GIANT step backwards for less than good intentions.

[TheFishinPollock]

No problem guys. Unfortunately I was the only one out of the 3 local clubs that showed up. There was a few guys that raised their hands for bass fishing , but none asked questions. The only comment I would have made was what the biologist said about some type of exemption for tournament anglers if a small closed season would be considered. There was another member of BASS that was there. Can't remember his name. Tall guy, big, gray haired. Seemed to be  involved directly like you are Dan.

The biologists seemed very excited that so many events registered and again asked that we as bass anglers do everything we can to supply them with any kind of data we possibly could to help with their studies as they just do not have extra funds in the coffers for the proper studies to be conducted constantly.

[djkimmel]

Not sure who that could have been. You should have introduced yourself maybe? I'm curious. But you were there so that's good.

[TheFishinPollock]

I left before the end. It was almost 8 and they saved the muskie info for last due to so many muskie guys at the meeting. It started to deteriorate into a whining match between spear guys and line guys.

[djkimmel]

It's a shame we can't get along even within the groups of anglers who prefer the same fish!! The 'anti-spearing' anglers have managed to get spearing taken off the books or not allowed in almost every other state with muskies.

Everyone is only allowed 1 muskie per year. There's not that many spearing anglers out there and they could always do something on some inland waters like they do with Black Lake sturgeon - only allow x number of muskie to be speared per year before closing the 'season' on that lake.

[robhj]

I've been to several of these meetings with the DNR and I haven't witness any whining. There has definitely been some disagreements between Muskie fisherman and spearers, but the main points of contention are regarding harvest and MSLs. As an avid Muskie fisherman, I have tried to stay educated on the regulations and management of muskies over the last decade. Based on the current science around muskies, most of our lakes need better protection for muskies in the way of increased MSLs/limited harvest.  The change to only being allowed 1 Muskie to harvest per year was a good start, but more really needs to be done. The MIDNRs own growth models suggest that many of our current lakes should have a MSL of 46 and I would argue, 50 inches in several of them. I don't know any fellow Muskie fisherman who is "anti-spearing." The vast majority however do feel that muskies need more protection. Although it may seem like there isn't that many spearing anglers out there, unfortunately, spearing can have a tremendously negative impact on muskie populations and there have been several studies to support this. Austin Lake near Kalamazoo is a perfect example of what can happen to a lake in a short amount of time because of spearing. I agree with you Dan, too bad Muskie harvest couldn't be done like they do for Sturgeon, especially considering the fact that there are less adult muskies than sturgeon in those lakes.  Although the Muskie hook & line anglers and spearers may not agree on harvest or MSLs, I did witness some positive conversations between the groups and I'm hopeful more things can be done to enhance our state's Muskie fishing. I'm just as passionate about bass fishing, but if anyone on this site wants information about Muskie fishing or studies regarding Muskies, just let me know and I'd be happy to share.

[t-bone]

This is really interesting. How to spearers insure that they meet the size restrictions before they impale a fish. Not like you can release a fish. I always wondered this when I watch the Tuna fisherman on TV, they do a visual check before they gaff a fish. I guess that's as good as you can get.

[robhj]

There is no way to know exactly what size a fish is when you see one in your spearing hole, however, if your decoy is 8" I'm sure seasoned spearers could get a good guesstimate. The real issue is that muskies congregate in fairly predictable shallow areas in the winter as they make their yearly movements to spawning areas. This makes them highly susceptible to exploitation. The larger fish (48"+) speared every year are females. Male muskies rarely if ever get bigger than 48". Even low levels of harvest can have very negative impacts on the muskie population. Muskies are horrible at reproducing, even in ideal ecosystems. LSC is an anomaly and is way outside the bell curve when discussing Muskie densities. Most lakes where muskies are naturally occurring have extremely low numbers and need additional protections. Sorry to ramble on about muskies, but I'm just as passionate about fishing for them as I am about chasing big smallies. Reintroducing Great Lakes spotted muskies to Macatawa, Grand River, Mona, Muskegon, White & others is great in my opinion because it will offer new fishing opportunities and I'm not concerned at all that it will have a negative impact on other gamefish.

[djkimmel]

I built this website just for a place for anglers to share information and their own opinions, find out things and maybe learn how to improve our sport even so I appreciate when people come here and state their opinions. I appreciate it even more when we can all do it in a way that fosters compromise when necessary and understanding (in an adult manner ).

[djkimmel]

I didn't make any of the meetings this year for various reasons. Glad some of you did. You are doing everyone, and especially yourselves, a big favor. Thanks!

As far as 'whining' I don't know about at the meetings but I have definitely seen negative interactions and commentary online on the 'muskie issue.' I made a short statement on another post about the muskie 'agenda' and apparently upset some unknown number of persons. I think my short statement could have been taken more positive or negative if the reader wanted to but I'm not surprised some might take it to be a real negative statement. That's just how it seems to go at times online.

I always hate to see anglers fighting among themselves online over issues but I don't expect myself or anyone else to not say what they feel and believe all the time just because someone else might not like. I think understanding can still come from sharing opinions if only we all try to look at things from each other's point of view - something we humans don't seem to do real well at times.

Being a former bass TOURNAMENT anglers (been 'painted' with that brush since the day I bought my 'bass' boat), I think I can feel some for other 'small' angler groups who might get smeared, bowled over or at least not give fair consideration and opportunity. I often get treated in the 'wish you would just disappear' way even recently by other 'fellow' anglers and some governement/state employees because they feel we are 'nothing but trouble.' Even had one state employee in the past tell me he would never support a longer Michigan bass season because he KNEW we just wanted to have more bass tournaments (THE HORROR!!) and he felt bass tournaments just didn't attract 'the right kind of people.' Always nice to find out you aren't 'the right kind of person...' 

I feel the spearers have a bad rap and get the short end of the stick at times too. PRIMARILY - we need EVERY hunter, angler and trapper we can get. If someone likes to spear - I have to believe there is a way to allow them some opportunity at fishing their way. In my opinion, the answer is NOT you can't spear. There are options.

I don't expect them to be able to spear on every lake but there are lakes (example - lakes where no actual productive spawn is expected and/or occurs) where at least some limited spearing opportunity could occur. And yes, why couldn't there be a x number of fish allowed to be speared per year on a few lakes?

I understand some anglers don't believe spearing is ethical, or should be allowed for their 'holy' muskie but for me, just because some anglers don't like it is not a good enough reason to deny other anglers some opportunity. I've been at several meetings where the subject of allowing some muskie spearing on Lake St. Clair has practically caused foaming at the mouth with some present. Give me a break... As I mentioned above, being treated similarly because I'm a horrible bass TOURNAMENT angler I think allows me to feel some of the pain of the spearing anglers.

At meetings, they often feel like they are always/immediately on the defensive over their way of fishing. At the last advisory council meeting I was at it was stressed that no one else allows spearing anymore. How could they not feel threatened knowing they have been almost completely shut down everywhere?? Heck, I just stated support for the proposal of a CIR muskie season, especially on Lake St. Clair where pike season is open all year, and 1 person present at the meeting interrupted me rudely demanding to know just who I represented and how I could feel that I have ANY say on the topic. The MDNR and committee chair had to stop him and tell him he already had a chance at his say, and that he needed to allow others to have their say too.

I realize as a species we seem to be, at times, very caught up in forcing our way of thinking on others. Knowing that we all actually often have many different opinions, I don't know how it can be so hard for some people to understand and grasp that we don't and won't all think exactly alike, and even that that is probably a bad road to travel. We probably need differing opinions to expand and grow healthily, to avoid stagnation and devolving.

I think managing by the actual facts and science is possibly the only way us 'fringe' anglers, hunters and trappers can get our fair share of the opportunity. Unfortunately, we seem to still be caught up in 'managing' many of our resources by social 'science' by making management decisions based on 'popularity contests' and even just plain picking the opinion of the group we like better. To me, this will only exacerbate angler infighting and cause many anglers (hunter, trappers) to feel like the red-headed step children of our outdoors heritage, and often actually, horribly serve the long-term purposes of our real foes - the radical animal rights groups.

I actually truly detest when the actions and lack of fairness and decency within our own angler community furthers the goals of our true enemies!! I see no difference between radical animal rights whackos trying to take away our outdoors opportunities one chunk at a time from the behavior of one angler (hunter, trapper) trying to force there way of thinking on a fellow angler by curbing or taking away their fishing opportunity. The end result of either action is the same bad outcome for the future of our outdoors sports and the natural resources too. Maybe I even despise the actions of fellow anglers more because I expect they should be smart enough to do first what is best for the overall future of the sport and the resource.

Of course, these people always claim they are doing this 'for the resource,' that they care more for the resource than the angler (hunter, trapper) they are trying to correct. They always insinuate that this other angler (hunter, trapper) doesn't truly care for the resource like they do or they would immediately correct (change) their ways and stop doing the thing the complaining anglers doesn't want them to do.

This is just one more attempt to blackmail and force one person's way of thinking on another person with ZERO true thought for the resource or the future of the sport. The more I think about it, the more I fear that THIS is our sport and resources biggest enemy even more dangerous to our future than the attacks from the radical animal rights group or habitat destruction. After all, isn't it much worse to destroy your own sport from within than allow outsiders to destroy it? As I say, the end result is the same - less anglers (hunters, trappers), less license sales and less supporters for our way of life.

I look at California, that has lost 50% of its anglers despite a growing population as evidence that things are already in peril. Much of our time at the various meetings and groups I'm involved in is spent on the 3 R's - Recruiting, Retention and Reactivation - because everyone is recognizing the risk to our sports' futures from the loss of participants.

So I expect I'll remain outspoken when it comes to infighting and negativity from with our own community. We MUST be more inclusive, more tolerant and spend more of our time trying to figure out how to get along better so we don't alienate more people right out of our sport, especially by minimizing or eradicating their opportunity by our own actions. To me, that is just a travesty.

That doesn't mean I won't try to not write things that others won't like, and I don't expect any of you to not do so either. We can disagree and remain friends. We can figure out how to compromise more often, and even recognize when some of our fellow anglers (hunters, trappers) are getting the short end of the stick unfairly just because someone doesn't like the way they do things. I really believe the only way to work out all of these harmful disagreements among angler (hunters, trappers) is to manage by science, not by what some people think.