Michigan Bass Season POLL

[djkimmel]

1. Dan - you've been given the opportunity by the groups with the political clout (albeit small) to successfully enact any kind of change.

If I gave the impression the sky is the limit or we've been give a blank check, I did not mean to. I'm not expecting a couple months of different behavior to mean that everyone (lake associations, all other anglers, anti's of course, etc.) wants regular bass tournaments all year or during the earlier part of the spawn (a not insignificant number of our own members are against this). That is not the case. Ask for more than you hope to get and reach an acceptable compromise is a good strategy. I do that most times. Start out too unrealistic and you're more likely to end up further down the compromise ladder than you wanted to be too in a more drawn out, contentious process. I'm not always right, but I have done this a few times.

2. We can all submit proposals. They may get read, but enter grand-standing politics and our names mean nothing and we have no one to back us.

I like you a lot. You've been a great member to have on here and I enjoy your company. Since we are being direct I will be direct - I'm not sure what you mean by grand-standing politics in this case or who you are targeting with that, but when I hear things like "our names mean nothing and we have no one to back us" I often hear someone making an excuse to not do anything. I've heard just about every statement there is from people on why they don't try. But I know for a fact that even one person can make a difference if he/she is determined enough. Any one person. Starting from scratch with little or no knowledge. I've seen it many times at many levels. Maybe you don't intend it to be the excuse variety - I sure don't expect that from you and assume it is not, but regardless, any one of us can make a difference. So I disagree with the statement and I, personally, need to keep figuring out how to make more people realize that and act on it. It will be good for our future. I've never been someone who would make a good politician so sometimes I do not deliver 'the message' as well as someone more skilled at communication could do. I'm a logical nerd. I worry about that often.

3. You singularly are the only person in this entire state right now with a tiny chance to make something happen - I'm not sure if you want that responsibility or not.

Again, this sounds a little like an excuse for others to not do much. It is also not true. If I was the only person with the entire weight of the Michigan bass fishing future resting on my shoulders, I would have a ton of work to do with little likelihood of accomplishing much for long periods of time unless I have tons of extra time and lots of extra money to spend - basically, the effort of a full-time job (think paid lobbyist - that's why they exist). We have more than a tiny chance because of things like so many bass anglers voluntarily practicing catch-and-release, and because enough anglers have made some type of public statement in support of a longer bass season. It would help if many more contacted their elected officials and the MDNR to state this. There's always room for more. But it is apparent to anyone with their eyes open that many anglers' opinions have evolved quite a bit. It has taken a long time for that to happen and to be more publicly recognized. The last time we did the bass season change process in 2004/2005 - it really took the final general angler survey showing that many anglers where fine with a longer fishing season to convince the MDNR to make the change.

As far as the responsibility... I really don't have the extra time, I definitely don't have the money to be doing this and would be better off concentrating on reducing stress. I got out of the boards and appointed positions for personal and necessary reasons. If someone else were to step forward and take over, I would be fine with that. I would offer advice and the information I am aware of. If that someone is open to a mix of determination and compromise, they could be successful. I don't see that person stepping forward and I have been asked multiple times to help because I have spent a lot of time in the past on these types of issues. I have made it clear to the people who have asked me, and have accepted my limits, that I will do it, but I have limits. Ideally, finding someone who doesn't have limits is awesome, but finding volunteers nowadays who will commit a ton of time and effort is much harder than it was even 10 years ago. I expect this to be more stressful for me because people tend to always want MORE from their volunteers, and sometimes they can be downright nasty in sharing their disappointment. But I'm not coming into this not knowing what to expect. Been there. Done that. I do NOT like that part of it, but I'm aware there will lots of pressure on me to do MORE. With more than I am able to do. I'm already getting more todo list stuff and email each day than I will ever get to. So, I will do my best, as much as I can do, and try to be personally satisfied I have done what I can. I'm often more hard on myself than other people are anyway, and I can't escape my own inner voice. It's always there reminding me what I've done and what I haven't done. At least I'm not an employee so there's only so much people can realistically expect me to do. It won't stop people from 'sharing' with me how much I haven't done or what I should have done, but I can remind them I am a volunteer, and that they are always welcome to volunteer and do a better 'job.'

4. Knowing your personal stance, the scientific facts and given the circumstances of the events of Jan/Feb/Mar with the DNR, i'm personally confused and disappointed in the proposal.

Again, we have been given a blank check. I do expect in my excitement about this opportunity I could easily have given the impression that the sky is the limit. That is an oversimplification of all the factors involved and all the things that will need to occur to get any change accomplished including trying to get more of you to agree on a compromise the most number of people (meaning everyone in Michigan who has any care about these issues) will be willing to accept. I do not want to do this and just waste time. I have said multiple times that I will present and discuss options during this process. I already know if there are public meetings, others will show up and do the same. Sometimes it may help. Sometimes it may make the process more difficult. Until the first meeting in June, I will not have a real good idea where this is headed and what the real possibilities are. For all you and I know, we may get more. There are many additional factors involved this time at least more aware of the issue. Anything could happen. You all could end up being much happier. We could also all end up being real disappointed. I will put some effort into helping the former, and a lot of effort into avoiding the latter.

The proposals are what I feel, and enough of a majority agree with and can compromise on, that we can realistically accomplish this time around (including considering the limits I have stated for my personal involvement).

[djkimmel]

5. I was expecting something that resembled what you actually want and what anglers in MI deserve.

The proposals are what I feel, and enough of a majority agree with and can compromise on, that we can realistically accomplish this time around (including considering the limits I have stated for my personal involvement). As I said above, until after the June meeting, none of us will really have a handle on what we can accomplish. I have always believed we will eventually get there barring some environmental disaster (which I also keep my eyes on). The proposals Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation approved are what I want this year. Because they are what I think we can get - at least 1 out of 2, and maybe parts of the second proposal. There will most definitely be opposition to much of this, and it will be a shame and a big disappointment to me if a lot of that opposition ends up being from anglers who can't accept making a next step, but will only accept getting everything now. I would say to those of you who are thinking of going that route, you need to spend some quality time at our Capitol and see how these things (change, legislation) actually work so you have a better understanding of our Democratic process. Or maybe just spend some time talking to the employees at MUCC for insight on outdoor change issues specifically.

I am sorry if I gave people the impression that we can easily accomplish anything we want this year. I did not intend to do that. This is never easy. Right now, I feel staying under the radar of the anti's has become more important to accomplishing anything. If you don't understand what I mean by that, please read the news and talk to your elected officials.

6. While you're spot on in that anyone of us can start from zero and in 20 years maybe get as far as you have - doesn't it make more sense to work together?

It doesn't take 20 years necessarily. I mentioned above that I have seen plenty of examples of one person at even higher levels starting with little or no knowledge ending up successful just due to sheer determination and drive. How bad do all of you want this? I know how bad I want it and I feel I have demonstrated that. How have all of you demonstrated how bad you want it?

It makes great sense to work together. I am actually doing that. With as many people I can partner with, because I can accomplish a lot more much easier if it isn't 'I' but a bunch of 'we.' What those of you who want everything now have to realize is that you are not in the majority yet. Not even close. There are 4 to 500,000 bass anglers in Michigan. There are millions of people who don't fish. There are less than 20,000 B.A.S.S. members. I do want to work TOGETHER - do you? If the answer is yes, you will need to recognize that you are probably not near the majority for wanting it ALL right now. I do think many, many more people are ready more than ever for less restrictions and more fishing opportunity. I also know there are many people who do not want regular bass tournaments during May or a longer season on St. Clair (including bass tournament anglers, even members on this website on both counts). I also know there are many, many people who want to end all fishing (and hunting) period. I understand impatience. I understand frustration. Believe me, I really do. But to be more successful at change, I personally feel one has to be able to look very clearly past just what one wants to the complete picture - the gauntlet that is pretty much always run when trying to make change. If you can't do that, more often than not, you will be more successful butting your head against a wall than going to meetings and lobbying.

So, yes, I am working together. So far with the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation (MBN), a number of other supportive angler groups I have talked to privately, a good number of business leaders, some elected officials - local and state, and a significant number of individuals who say they can live with this compromise if we get that much. I was hoping TBF of Michigan would also sign on but, partly my fault, I did not get the actual written proposals to Dave Reault early enough for him to be comfortable presenting them, so no official word from them. I am also their conservation person and will present whatever they ask me to - if they can get something to me by June 17, but as I mentioned above, I have expressed their are limits to how much I can do, and I will end up going down the pass of lesser resistance once I am sure what that path is, meaning the path that is most likely to lead to successful change in the right direction. With both federations having their meetings the same day, I had to pick one only and I had already committed to MBN, and I'm actually officially representing them on many of the committees and groups I am now on.

7. There are plenty of people willing to chip in that want the exact same thing as you - doing everything yourself in a vacuum is a lose-lose imho. I apologize for sounding critical, i sincerely do understand where you're coming from and appreciate the sacrifice it's taken - however the "me vs. the world" attitude doesn't jive with me.

I don't know what you mean by 'chip in?' I do a terrible job of asking for help I know, but it is not like I don't ask at all. I am aware I can improve my communication skills (been told that a number of times by non-nerd 'normal' people in particular ). I am definitely not in a vacuum. I feel pretty good this time about accomplishing some significant change with the help of quite a few groups and people - see my response to #6 above. If I have once again communicated poorly to lead anyone to think I am talking about "me vs. the world" I am sorry. I did not intend that to be the message. I say I a lot. I'm a logical nerd. Some of us do that.

I cannot and do not intend to take all the credit or make it seem like no one else is helping. I repeat that I cannot do this alone and I'm not doing it alone. I count the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation board of directors, all the people who practice catch-and-release often, all the people who have contacted the MDNR and/or their elected officials, or wrote a letter to the editor about how they want things, all the business people who are offering their signatures to proposals, all the government officials and business leaders who are actually publicly talking about bass tournaments being desirable, all the DNR fisheries people in any state or province who have been honest and open with me and/or the public about science, the new MDNR leadership emphasizing more success with wise use of our natural resources to help our economy, all the individuals who have offered their support publicly or privately, all the people who fish in the spring demonstrating there is a demand, and more, as partners in this process of change. Without all these things and more, change would take even longer and even more people pushing in the same direction to happen.

I do tend to complain a fair amount about the lack of involvement, but that is mainly because I know it could happen even faster and easier if more people made the time to be involved. As I said, I know impatience and frustration both - they are my 'friends.' I will continue to consider how I communicate because I would prefer more success. It would be good for everyone who enjoys our natural resources if I can become a more effective communicator. Anything any of us can do to be better communicators and more involved is good for our natural resources.

8. There are people who's phone numbers you have (lots of them) that would lighten this burden. If you want to continue on that path, then don't share this info and just delete these posts because there is no point in discussing them.

If you have ideas for lightening any burden - mine or anyone elses, I'm all ears. Can't agree with most of this. I can't personally call everyone all the time. I spend so much time on the phone some days as it is. Another reason I created this forum is I can write something once and hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of people can 'hear' it, and even add their own opinions and ideas, once again, for a potentially unlimited audience, usually adding much more value to the discussion and knowledge. This type of communication is way more viral than calling individuals on the phone. Since I personally need to save time, I try to think of and use the most effective, efficient way to communicate with lots of people when that is what is required. I sometimes redirect people who contact me privately about general help and answers back to the forum because I believe it is a better use of the website I built, and it is often better to get more varied answers from more people. There are many things I don't know, but someone else probably does. I occasionnally have someone get angry at me for doing this but it is my personal opinion it is better to use the communication method that exists rather than private conversations only two of us benefit from.

I do not believe I'm on the path you are saying I'm on though I may make it sound that way sometimes in my own frustration and human shortcomings. I have asked for help of various kinds on here a number of times in a number of ways. I have asked some people for help privately though I don't do that very much for various reasons. I'm sure I do not say thank you enough or properly to those who do help. I know I can communicate better and I consider that a lot. Pretty much every day. Just for selfish reasons, life is easier when I communicate better. I'm sure many people find that to be true.

Of course, I won't stop sharing information on here. There'd be no sense in having a public forum, any public forum if people stopped sharing information and opinions. I sure don't think that is the right direction to head. I rarely delete posts (other than spam/free advertising attempts once in a while). I can't even think of the last time I or a moderator did that? I do have a log. Most deleted posts are self-deleted by the person who wrote them. I sometimes even contact people privately and ask why they deleted their own post - certain things that I think would be good for people to read and discuss.

Another reason I created this forum was because I think it is possibly a helpful tool for more people to see how varied opinions can be from person to person - we surely don't all think alike or have the same exact values, how many things we have in common (I wish we anglers/hunters/outdoors people spent even more time on those) and maybe learn how to work together despite our differences (maybe by recognizing our common ideas more?) to still accomplish productive change that we can all compromise and agree on. Who enjoys the annual disagreement conflicts and just spinning their wheels on the same differing opinions every year? Not me... Many of the changes I personally propose or jump on board with have a built-in goal to reduce as much conflict as possible between outdoors people. Are 'fight' is not with each other. Never has, never was, never should.

So, no, I'm not going to stop posting information, or make a habit of deleting differing opinions. I will definitely share mine and respond, sometimes in maybe too forceful a way, but I like to think that most of the time, for me, that is driven by the depth of how important some of these topics are to me. That's my intent anyway, even when I fail.

Definitely, if everytime someone disagrees with someone else or isn't happy with the direction something takes, they quit, or delete their opinions, or tell someone/everyone else to delete theirs or stop sharing, the forum becomes a failure. I spend a lot of time thinking about how to make the forum successful not a failure. I do seek out private consultation about these kinds of things often because I do not know everything. There are always knowledgeable, helpful people out there and I appreciate that many are willing to share. Thank you.

I also realize that we humans often react one way in the short term and then maybe come around to a different way later after having time to think about things. At least, I do that a lot. I wish I did it less often. I will keep trying to improve on that myself. Most of what I write on this forum is almost never directed at one person. I do try very hard to remember that there are lots of different eyes on most topics. I apologize to anyone who thinks when I respond to their words that I only aim my response towards that person. I usually am not doing that though I should always be aware that it will seem that way to many people.

9. Also - to be clear, i'm all for the license increase. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't get something out the deal.

Great! I'm glad to hear that. I am in whether we get something or not. I feel we need a strong MDNR. I would rather have a strong MDNR and then put in the effort to try to get them doing what I would like them to do than have an ineffective or less effective MDNR that can't do much. The MDNR has been more transparent this spring because the user groups have told them that is what they expect. The MDNR come out with statements and goals that demonstrate they realize they need to be more receptive and possibly helpful to warmwater anglers. We just had the Deputy Director at the MBN meeting - it was a PACKED meeting too by the way, THANK YOU so much to those of you who made it! I am willing to work from where we are at right now to help the MDNR work better and more with us. It has to start somewhere, and as the Director himself, Keith Creagh told me personally, culture change takes time, please be a little patient. Patience is not one of my strong points either, but I will definitely try.

[ROI Outdoors]

Wow.

[djkimmel]

Dan, I have no intentions of writing my own proposal.  This is one of the many reasons I'm a member of MBN and TBF.  As an individual it is difficult to have influence on issues like these and I rely on these organizations to represent me.  IMO if you Bass fish in Michigan and you're not a member of both organizations you're only hurting yourself.     However as a member of the MBN Sunday was my only opportunity to have any input on the proposals that will be representing us as members.  I receive all the emails from Paul, and don't recall anything asking our members opinions so they can be represented accurately.   My comments Sunday represented the majority of my club.  Our club doesn't feel the proposal creates any additional tournament opportunity in Michigan.  We also feel that opening St. Clair with the rest of the state will reduce spring tournament participation up north.  South east Michigan's natural economy will benefit from this, at the expense of the rest of the state.  Our club will continue to take our money out of state during the closed/catch & release season along with several other Michigan anglers.   Personally my #1 goal would be to expand the tournament season to allow for more cold water tournaments.  As we know as anglers and studies have shown fish mortality is directly related to water temperature, particularly with smallmouths.  With our current season the majority of tournaments take place during the warmest months of the year.  As for Luke, your opportunity to speak up was on Sunday!  The proposal is going forward as is to represent the MBN, so this discussion is pointless.  As for the license increase, I'm fine with it as long as they sell a prorated Bass license for the 6 months Bass season is open!    
-Matt

I thank you for joining both groups. I thank you for serving on the board of one. You are helping make a difference.

"IMO if you Bass fish in Michigan and you're not a member of both organizations you're only hurting yourself." Totally agree! Always have. I tell people to please join one, the other, or both fairly often. I need to do it more.

It is not difficult as individual to have influence. I'm an individual. I just became the conservation person for both in the last couple weeks. I feel like I have some success with influence. So it can be done. You just have to be willing to make whatever effort it takes.

The organizations do represent you. You elect the people who run your club. They choose and elect the people who run the federations. The Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation has operated the same way for as long as I can remember - which is back to about 1984-85 - except they did stop picking the Classic Series lakes at the president's meeting! Man, that was a nightmare sometimes. It is partially what drove them to operate more like our government operates - a representative Democracy. The squeaky wheel does get the grease quite often so if you don't 'squeak' you're not going to get 'grease' very often.

How they decided this issue was no different than how they decide many or most issues - they go with what they feel is the best option considering the information they have and the input they have previously received from club reps. All of their names and contact information are on their website so it is easy let them know your opinions at any time about any topic, just like it works in our various levels of government. If you don't communicate with them, they might not know your opinions.

As I have gone by much more than just a few people's comments on this issue, so did they. A few of the same topics came up and were discussed before there was unanimous vote to support. This wasn't a snap decision made in a few minutes. They all read a lot of the same stuff you all read. Each board member has his or her own personal opinions too. They never agree on everything the same way but they know once a vote is taken that they need to get behind it for it to be successful regardless of their personal opinions. That is how things get done.

I don't agree that St. Clair will take tournaments away from the North. People all over the country, even the world, want to come to St. Clair. St. Clair has the facilities and it is closer to everyone else, which makes it a natural destination anyway.

Many anglers are now finding, through TV shows, websites, etc. that we have excellent fishing up North too and there is slow, but steady growth of bass anglers fishing up North. It is still very light. If gas prices weren't so high and they had the facilities up there, more options would be more likely. Possibilities have been discussed quite a few times for a number of years. At some point, we will see these possibilities become reality as long as enough people continue to want to fish things like tournaments. Some more involvement by bass anglers, particularly organized bass anglers, could help speed that process up some. I do not think it hurts at all to have the Bassmaster Toyota All-Star Week on the West side of Michigan in Muskegon this year.

The first thing I would suggest is that all of you tell everyone you know about these events. We need big crowds and great participation to keep getting these events, which will also help drive other change and opportunity.

As far as more bass tournaments, as I have said, if enough people continue to want them, they will expand regardless of what some people might want. Rather than use up time and effort I don't have on a much tougher issue, I am going to help expand the bass season so the far more numerous anglers can also enjoy more bass fishing. I think other factors will drive the bass tournament issue along. I have actively worked on helping that along in just the past week, and continue to do so. I just know my personal limits, and how and where my time is best spent to do what I'm able to help move things in the right direction.

I will say one more time, ANYONE else can write whatever proposal they want. Stop making excuses and do it, if you want it that bad - I'm saying that to anyone who feels the same way as expressed by people on here. Stop trying to tell me or anyone else that they need to do what you want. You want it - YOU DO IT! If you have the support and rationale you believe you have, than you may actually be successful. You definitely get what you put into it - put nothing into it, you will probably get nothing out of it.

The bass tournament question has been a hindrance to the Michigan bass season issue for a long, long time. I am not personally ready to take it on head-to-head if it is going to be a battle. I do not have the time and other things it will take. I have recommended to both federations that they do not make it a major part of any change effort right now either though I have actively been discussing the economic impact with other influential people outside of this effort - there are more one way to get to your destination. If TBF of Michigan picks a position that is quite a bit different than the MBN one, our efforts for any change will be more challenging. As I said, I would still turn it in but I cannot personally put all my efforts into a losing effort. I will always state who has what position but I'm not going to create and fight any protracted battles. As soon as I see what seems most likely after the June meeting in Lansing, I will advise the board or boards, and others I represent and/or cooperate with, and go from there.

Throughout the year, every year, I do take some of my time to advance Michigan fishing opportunity in any way I see possible. Some efforts are public and some are not. Not just bass fishing opportunity. That would be shortsighted - like expecting a 6-month prorated bass fishing license when all kinds of fish live in the same water relying on the same habitat, forage and clean water, which are required by bass and all fish 12 months out of the year, not 6. $15 or $25 once a year is a ridiculous bargain anyway. Myself, and others go to meetings and do these other activities because it is obvious we cannot afford to be shortsighted when it comes to our natural resources.

My challenge to all of you is to ask you do you want some change or no change? If you continue to want your way or no way, no change becomes a little more likely. Get behind the best available alternative option, compromise, and some change in the right direction is a lot more likely. Or, get to work on your way. Those are really your two options. Doing nothing is not an option. It never has been. So please, don't choose it. If you do, you are only hurting yourself (and the rest of too, actually).

[jcox7]

Maybe the Federations should have got together (god forsake us) and had an open town hall meeting where we could of put an action plan together.  The question should be if we should be trying to fish a few weeks early in C&R or if we should of put a more aggresive plan together to open the season longer or all the way.  The last idea is if we should of not worried at all about this subject and worried about protecting what we have.  Dan is right when he says there are a lot of groups that would love to make our enjoymet less enjoyable seems to me that we should be putting together ideas and plans to stop them and stop fighting with ourselves about such small things that are all in all just nothing. 
An extended C&R does nothing (sorry Dan) Im just waitning to get a ticket for fishing so I can set preciedent in court and then who cares. 
Opening the season would take 270,000 signatures on a petition then we could put it on a ballott and see where the state truthfully stands but as Dan says none of you really want to help and those signatures would take a lot of people working together for an end cause and ha that probably is a dream.
Opening St Clair early.........I have said it before it is a border lake and not only will Michigan not step on Ontarios toes over this America will not step on Canadas toes.  If this happens I would be shocked but again it would not benifit me because I fish other lakes in our state.  Please just dont try to say this is about fishing anglers and then bring St Clair as the big prize since Im guessing 80% or more of licensed fisherman in Michigan have never even fished that body of water.
What I do believe we should be preparing for is the attack on Northern Tournaments.  The law changes in Minnesota and Wisconsin is proof of what is going on in our region.  Wisconsin can and do close tournaments once the water temp hits a certain degree and Minnesota has many lakes that after a certain time of the year you can only have 3 fish tournaments.  We need to have the support of our MDNR but that being said we do not need them making bad choices for us.
The federations are a great way for anglers to get our voices heard as a group but for some reason here in Michigan it is alomost a joke.  Indiana has the least fishable water in the country yet there federations have nearly 3600 members here in Michigan we have maybe 500 combined that is sad!!!!
Lastly please do not thin that Govt. works slow in Indiana anglers complained about the A Rig and 6 weeks later laws were changed and it is now illegal 6 weeks not slow.  The Right to Work law was beought up and finished in what seemed like days!!

Not looking to fight just pointing out we need to work together and we have not done that

Jeffery Cox
Vice President of THE BASS FEDERATION

[thedude]

Dan - not making excuses. I simply don't have the time, energy, experience, contacts or knowledge to do this by myself.  If I were to make a list of things i'm good at, Sales and Politics would not be on that list. Problem solving, planning, logistics, arguing on the internet - sure. I want to help you. I've offered to help you - even drive you to meetings - because that is some way i can actually add value but other than that, you have to tell me. Not so much an excuse, it's just reality - the things i do, i do well - the things i don't do well, i simply don't do. 10 people submitting 10 different proposals adds no value and just makes us look like a big, unorganized mess.

I've been hearing you say that the (deputy?) Director of the DNR explicitly expressed to you (more than once) they want you to give them a proposal on the bass seasons (a) and that they think tournaments could provide positive economic improvement in many communities (b).

I don't think this gives us anything resembling a blank check to ask for the world - and correct me if i misheard or misunderstood when we spoke about it before.

I submit a lot of designs in response to RFPs at work. Typically if someone asks for a proposal and gives me context i fine tune my proposal to meet the specifics of that context.  My confusion stems from trying to figure out how an extended C&R season and earlier St. Clair opener show positive economic improvement, in small communities, via an expanded tournament season.  

I understand there will be push back on any season change from the Antis or lake owners etc - frankly, that is the DNR's problem. If they are truthful in saying they want to expand tournament opportunity - then the proposal should address that in some fashion. This is what they asked for, let them deal with the aftermath. Are we really that worse off if they decline the whole thing? We already have an unenforceable C&R - just keep "violating". Seems like the only people that gain anything at all here are people who fish lake st. clair.  I agree, it should be under the same seasons as everywhere else, but it seems unfair to the rest of the state.

[PineLk 49]

Lets take a look at this two headed monster from another angle. Dan has mentioned this several times but only one person has picked up on this. LAKE ASSOCIATION!!! The loudest voice is the lake association. I am a member of 2 lake associations and the number 1 complaint is Tourney Anglers.FYI I am a tourney angler and have been for 35 years. They are trying to shut us down. They want to ban tourneys. This is why I am a member to give a voice as to why they should not.

If it take small strides to keep everyone on board, I am all for that. Be very cautious with your wish list because you and I may end up with less than what we started with in the end.

I love my state, land and waters. We have something that the majority of the world will never experience. So please take your blinders off and expand on your vision as a whole. In the end when everyone gets a piece of the pie, WE ALL WIN!!!

Dave

[Waterfoul]

I understand there will be push back on any season change from the Antis or lake owners etc - frankly, that is the DNR's problem. If they are truthful in saying they want to expand tournament opportunity - then the proposal should address that in some fashion. This is what they asked for, let them deal with the aftermath. Are we really that worse off if they decline the whole thing? We already have an unenforceable C&R - just keep "violating". Seems like the only people that gain anything at all here are people who fish lake st. clair.  I agree, it should be under the same seasons as everywhere else, but it seems unfair to the rest of the state.

I have been told by 3 different people that this is exactly what the DNR expressed.  More opportunity.  Well let's give them that kind of proposal.  Seems easy to me.

[djkimmel]

I like town hall meetings. I went to one not that long ago. I would like to see bigger federation(s) in Michigan too.

I'm glad jcox7 brought up the Wisconsin and Minnesota overregulations. A few of these Northern states do get (wrong) ideas from each other. I'm concerned that bass anglers in Minnesota don't seem to be hardly trying to stop them - at all the ones I have talked to so far. I'm concerned about the things going on in New Hamshire and Maine too. Way more dangerous to our sport than most of the things anglers argue about. I would love to see Michigan be the Northern trendsetter in "more fishing opportunity" ideas. That would be positive.

There are people helping in Michigan, just never enough. We can't afford to keep being like the Minnesota anglers I talked to who told me it wouldn't make a difference if they tried, so they did nothing...

I disagree with anyone who says year-round legal bass fishing in Michigan won't add opportunity. I know it will. I will be including cited data on that topic when I turn in my proposal. A chunk of the angler infighting each winter/spring on the internet in Michigan (and other Northern closed states and Ontario) is the result of resentment between the anglers who follow the law and don't fish (many of them on this forum such as myself since 2006) and the anglers who ignore the law and fish.

Open the season all year, and many of these other anglers will start fishing earlier than the existing opener - hence, more opportunity and economic impact. I will be one of the anglers who will start earlier. We are talking about 4 to 500,000 possible early anglers not the much smaller number of hardcore anglers that go whenever regardless of the law. We will also attract more out-of-state anglers with simpler regulations that allow them to fish whenever they can travel. I know this just from the out-of-state anglers who contact me through this website alone, let alone considering the almost 300,000 out-of-state bass anglers who already travel here in the season now - I don't doubt if you ask our out-of-state anglers just on this website if they will start fishing here earlier if they could that you can easily prove there will be more fishing, hence, more opportunity and more economic impact.

Any of you who want to keep thinking there is no positive economic impact from any longer fishing season can continue to state that, but it is not true, and there is plenty of data that proves that. There will be many more fishing days, meaning more money spent on fishing in Michigan, and another probable positive benefit, also shown by studies, is that the earlier anglers have a chance to go fishing, particularly for their favorite fish, the more likely they are to buy a fishing license that year. The later in the year they go before they buy their fishing license, the more likely they are to just skip buying a fishing license that year. When you are dealing with a million+ anglers, these types of situation can have a significant impact positively or negatively. Considering we are down 200,000 or more fishing licenses in Michigan, I'm going to work on things that might sell more licenses.

I expect St. Clair to continue to be talked about a lot. I expect to have more trouble with bass tournament anglers over that issue than anyone else. Which is crazy, but that is how these things tend to work... Crazy that the least major change may be the most problematic issue (not that I didn't expect that)... You will believe me or not, I can't help that, but priority #1 for me has always been legal bass fishing all year statewide. It will be in this process too. Everything else is secondary to that. I have said numerous times that will try to accomplish as much as it appears is possible, but I will work hardest to get year-round, legal bass fishing statewide. The rest this time around is all bonus. I like bonus. I hope the MDNR and people are ready for more now. It would be good for all of us in the long run. I won't know at all until June 17.

Frankly, I would feel great if I could get up any day of the year and decide I'm going bass fishing on lake _____ whatever today, and actually be able to do it. Many, many other people will feel the same way. Just asking random people that walk by my booths at each winter's show I get that response, let alone the people on this forum who tell me they would love to be able to fish, but won't fish it until it is legal. I care about these people just as much as I care about any other angler. Every angler and potential angler is valuable in my eyes. Every extra fishing day is valuable to everyone.

Please, everyone, stop saying what you can't do, or won't do, or will never happen, and do SOMETHING. As the saying goes, whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right.

Change can definitely happen faster if enough people want it, and make the effort.

[djkimmel]

thedude, I do not remember you or anyone offering to drive me to meetings...? But, I don't remember what I did this morning either so who knows? If you did, thank you. I forgot. I try to make notes of important things. You do know these meetings are mostly during the week, scattered all over the state and many are practically all day? That is why I hear most people say they can't make most meetings I talk about.

At least I do have the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation helping me with gas mileage for the meetings that I represent them. Again, I thank them. I could not do what I have so far without that help. Which makes working with them pretty important to my odds of being a successful part of this process.

As far as what I said about the MDNR, I was excited to finally hear what I have been waiting for a long, long time - we are 'officially' no longer undesirable! I did not say the MDNR wants another 500 tournaments. What I said is that they are now saying basically that we can be friends and they (a few of them) are openly, publicly talking positively about bass tournaments for the first time. I still expect more tournaments to happen because anglers want them, and more local business and government are becoming aware and putting some effort into this area. Up until 7 weeks ago, it was made clear to me by some in the MDNR that ANY change would have to not have anything to do with bass tournaments (whether it actually increased that opportunity or not in the end).

Again, I did not say they asked for X number of additional bass tournaments. This was just a sign that more things are now possible including conditions that would allow and attract more tournaments. I get excited, who knows what impression I might give? I've been tired of the annual intra-angler (and hunter) infighting for decades. I've been tired for a couple decades of having some people treat me as 'undesirable' just because I own a bass boat. It is very refreshing - a real good feeling to have some of that lifted. Definitely does not mean I expect 100% acceptance and love across the board suddenly from everyone for what we do. Man, I've been around block, not in a turnip patch.

Shoot, I have even seen negative comments from bass tournament anglers recently including 1 club rep Sunday who complained about not wanting more tournaments at Lake St. Clair... oh boy. Why does this always have to be so complicated...?? It just is. It just is.

So, more possible, yes. Are all are trials and tribulation suddenly gone? Heck no. Wait until we get to the public part of this...

PS: The Deputy Director clarified Sunday that his comments about increasing Michigan's natural resource economy pertained to any group, including just a group of visiting anglers. He did NOT say, 'yeah, lets have 500 more bass tournaments.' Anyone who thinks they heard that has probably needed relief from this crazy situation in Michigan fishing a lot worse even than me.

I understand wanting something real bad. I also understand the Democratic process real well. I have to consider both and more, along with what I am personally able to handle when I choose how much I'm willing and able to do. I imagine anyone who wants everything now real bad will end up thinking I didn't do enough, while others who maybe have a more realistic idea of how the Democratic process goes will be fairly happy with any additional positive change we get. That's pretty much how it always goes. I really could never be in politics. This stuff could drive a logical nerd nuts!

[djkimmel]

Now, I really have to get back to working on other peoples' website because if I don't spend most of my time doing that, I won't be going to any meetings or writing any papers about anything.

I suggest all of you figure out what you can individually do to help, get more acquainted with the Democratic process maybe, read what I'm saying without hearing before you do that I'm not going to do what you personally think I should do, and get on board, if you want any change at all. I know many of you want some change. So do many other people, thank goodness.


Also, thank you to all of you who have donated to this website, who have helped out at an outdoor show, who have given an advertiser who supports this website a chance to earn your business, who have started your online shopping with the affiliate shopping links - without some of that help and support, I would be out of this process completely. People would have to get after someone else to do what they want the 'right' way!!!

[ROI Outdoors]

The great thing about the process is that no one person or group is in total control of the outcome.  I do know a lot of people including myself that are very disappointed with the proposals being presented on behalf of the Federation Nation and even more disappointed with the fact that you could present another more progressive proposal in addition too what you are already proposing but refuse to do so.  Why is it that?

How much input on these 2 proposals came from it's membership?  How much input did the Board of Directors have on these proposals?  Was it a discussion or was it a "here's what I think" presentation and then an "all in favor" vote? 

The sad part about the whole situation is the amount of time people have wasted discussing this topic on this site yet go seemingly unrepresented when an opportunity comes along......

[djkimmel]

Uh... I'm starting to think I do type too much. Or reading comprehension is an issue that should be studied more... maybe both? I've covered all of your questions already. Some more than once. You'll just have to either read everything, or take my word for it.

I've said multiple times that I will be offering/discussing other ideas and options. I will go with whatever seems most likely to be successful, trying to get the best possible outcome. I ALWAYS have done that. I'm actually more than a little ticked that I'm getting this to tell you the truth. If you have no trust in me, then you better be out finding someone else who will do what you want the way you think it needs to be done. This reminds why I will not go into politics. There, insanity, for me does lie.

It helps that I remember I'm only getting this from a handful of people. Only 1 person actually spoke up in a packed room of maybe 50 people, and no one else from any other club/group spoke in support. Also, I always look around the room and there weren't heads shaking and amen comments being made. It was dead still and silent.

On the other hand, when I answered Matt, there were heads shaking yes and even comments of support made from a number of people around the room. You have to watch for these things to know where you really stand. I always do that. It's part of 'how to be successful in a Democratic process' that I follow. If you don't look around to see what other people are doing, don't pay attention, it is easy to fool yourself into thinking you have a coalition that doesn't exist. I've been in coalitions that didn't exist before. It sucks. Especially when you want your way and that's that. I've wanted my way plenty of times and not got it.

Since I don't like that very much, I decided long ago that I better figure out better ways to get things done. There are people out there who are really good at this stuff (and still fail a lot) that are willing to share how-to information too. It's no different than finding good anglers to ask questions.

You are right that there is no one person in 'control.' As always, we will have to win over MUCC, which can be unpredictable, hence (I like that word lately) I have been working on that ahead of time with the help of others. We will have to win over, and make care, a bunch of people representing all other kinds of fishing groups besides bass, win over enough of the MDNR and then get it by the public without a huge stink being raised that dents or kills the whole thing. If we don't have a pretty good amount of support and help convincing all these, things will stay the same (which could be perceived as a loss, as some people in the Democratic process might point out - actually will point out - been there, done that too).

Though we would still get to fight more every winter over resentment and opinions, and some of us will fish illegally while some of us will sit, waiting and simmering.

Let me say one more time - IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO WORK FOR IT! If you won't work for it, stop expecting someone else to do it for you. That is how our Democratic process works. You work for things, or sometimes you pay someone else to do it for you. You just don't go around finding a bunch people waiting around to volunteer to give you your exact way through their hard effort. Especially when you are in a minority. If you really want your way, you should be thinking about that.

This whole thing didn't sneak up on anyone. We've been talking about it more than enough long enough for any of you to have been discussing this with your clubs, your federations reps, whomever long before this point. You can't wait until the last minute and then try to talk to everyone. It doesn't work that way. I went to the first meeting to get this going again in April of 2012. I've been discussing options with various groups and people since before that time.

What I find real interesting, is this small number of people is telling me they don't know how to do this, they can't do this, they don't have the information or knowledge (or support... hmmm?). They tell me I'm the only one who can do this because I'm the only one who has the knowledge (and support... hmmm?) to do this. And then...

they tell me I'm doing it wrong... 

Luckily, if the rest of us who are doing it wrong get somewhere with new and more opportunity... you still get to benefit from it too, even if you refuse to accept that it is more/new opportunity!!  As Mick Jagger says, 'You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you get what you need.'

Heck, later on, when everything is finally the way it is going to end up, you can even tell me you were right and I was wrong (you will not be the first)... If you can find me. I will probably be out fishing, and we have lots of water out there I haven't even been on yet!

That's all I've ever wanted. To just go fishing. Whenever I can, however I want to, for whatever I feel like fishing for. It doesn't seem like too much to ask. But yes, you usually have to work for what you want in this country. I don't care who's right, who's wrong. Who gets the credit. Who doesn't. I just want to go fishing. Can I just go fishing? Please?

[ROI Outdoors]

Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

[jcox7]

Dan
     I would first off to say I am only being honest here.  I agree with your main point here, as much as most people who know both of us know how much we have really not liked each other.(remember I am a undercover PETA agent LOL)  Sure we have talked more in the past year which is better than us bad talking each other but that is all in all a whole different thing.  You are 100% correct in my eyes, if I was the person doing 99% of the work I would also listen to others to a point but if I were spending all my time on it at the end of the day I would attempt to get something out of my time and not shoot for the stars.  It would suck to spend so much time and get nothing for it.  I will say this for you.....
For all of you with the best and greatest ideas stop wasting time typing on here and start typing your own proposals.  If you do not have time to go to meetings to have them heard get them to me and I will get them into the hands of people that can read them and if they make since and are written well enough with scientific and economical backing I am sure it will be discussed but until you want to to at least that stop commenting on someone elses hard work!!  For every complaint you have with the direction Dan is taking you have not taken any direction.  Some of you are my friends some of you are not I do not care all in all if you want "your" words read then shut up and write them.  If your excuse is you do not have time try this log off GLB and stay off until you write something you might be suprised at how much time you really have.  Give up the next day you plan to go fishing work on this and maybe you can add hundreds of hours per year of legal fishing how busy can you really be??

[Lightningboy]

Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

Really?  That's your eloquent contribution to this discussion?   

This will never get done, we can't even seem to drop the crap between all of us on the same web page, let alone different angler groups.

Most of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

But that's not what happened.  Sportsman from many groups & the MDNR banded together to not only defeat proposal D, but to prevent further attacks by supporting proposal G.  Remember "D is dumb, G is good"?  This happened by "kitchen table" discussions by sportsman across the state.  I tried to lobby every non sportsman ear I could bend.  So did others.  Still sounds like a good plan to me.

Open season all year, on all waters, or coincide with the the pike/walleye opener.  Keep it simple, get everybody on board.

[thedude]

Most of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

more recently we did exactly the opposite for the dove bill - MI sportsman in general are at each others throats for the most part these days.



Dan - i offered at the show in passing conversation - don't worry about it. The impression I got from that same conversation is somewhat contrary to what replied with here. So i'll leave it at that. I understand better your position now and can't fault you for that.  I still think pushing a little harder for something like an April opener would be a good thing, even if it's not eventually adopted - at least if we lose the gamble, the seed is planted.  It doesn't need to be about tournaments either - as stated a simplification of the regulations surely make enforcement easier and closes the gap on ignorance of regulations resulting in violations. This would surely benefit both angler and DNR/LEO through increased opportunity and cost savings.

[djkimmel]

Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

If you are talking to me, I don't know where you took something as an insult. But you took it that way. I didn't mean to insult anyone. I'm just stating my opinions too and I'm being direct because it seems to be called for.

[djkimmel]

Dan
     I would first off to say I am only being honest here.  I agree with your main point here, as much as most people who know both of us know how much we have really not liked each other.(remember I am a undercover PETA agent LOL)  Sure we have talked more in the past year which is better than us bad talking each other but that is all in all a whole different thing.

When I disagree (sometimes strongly) it doesn't always mean I like or don't like someone. I'm a redhead. My face turns red. Looks a little crazy. Feels a little crazy sometimes...

I like you fine when we talk about things without either of us getting contentious. Even if we don't agree 100% on everything as long as we are able to talk about it reasonably. I have enjoyed some of our recent discussions quite a bit. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

[djkimmel]

Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

Really?  That's your eloquent contribution to this discussion?   

This will never get done, we can't even seem to drop the crap between all of us on the same web page, let alone different angler groups.

Most of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

But that's not what happened.  Sportsman from many groups & the MDNR banded together to not only defeat proposal D, but to prevent further attacks by supporting proposal G.  Remember "D is dumb, G is good"?  This happened by "kitchen table" discussions by sportsman across the state.  I tried to lobby every non sportsman ear I could bend.  So did others.  Still sounds like a good plan to me.

Open season all year, on all waters, or coincide with the the pike/walleye opener.  Keep it simple, get everybody on board.

I like your suggestion quite a bit. As I have said, I will be getting a feel for how likely that might be possible or not. I wish I was a lobbying juggernaut right now with a lot more available time. There is room for someone else who wants to go for that with more personal and time resources.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinions to.

'Kitchen table' discussions (including online kitchens) have played an important part in the bass (and fishing) season issue too.

Speaking of Proposal G, the real attempt to finally implement it 16 years later is under way. I saw this morning that the Senate versions of bills 288 and 289 Scientific Management passed: SB 288 by a vote of 25 to 11 and SB 289 by a vote of 27 – 9. I think the House versions will be more challenging, but many groups are working on that. I discussed these bills with several elected officials last Thursday. Read: http://www.mucc.org/2013/04/halfway-there-michigan-senate-passes-sb-288-and-289/ for more information.

I'm thinking of a new slogan: "Let's drop the crap!"

What do you think?