Tournament Pay back

[Jason Ammerman]

Do you know how much tournament directors are keeping? Don't you think we should know?

[BASS FISHERMAN]

this is verrie good questiun jason ammerman!!
i thinks tourrnie monnies are skim off the top in mannie curcuts indeed butt the $$$$dollor$$$$ amounts is the questiun
i vote the 20% on yur poll!!am i close??
some curcuts skim monnies off the top for classic funds boats an such
whtas you think bout this??
OUT LAW BASS goin to be better??

RANGERS BOAT RULE

[Genie]

Why does there always have to be someone that has to stir the pot when it comes to tournaments?

If you don't like a circuit, how it is run, the director, etc. - don't fish it.

Stop stirring the pot or at least go back to LSCN and stir that pot.

-Genie

[gr@ssmonkey]

if nobody stirrs the pot it will burn........(us)

[Jason Ammerman]

sounds like someone is a tournament director! I don't have a problem with directors making money I want to Know how much of my $ I am fishing for at the ramp. The paybacks have gotten smaller and the cost have gone up. I don't want to hear about all the great prizes that are given away. I have yet to win a prize at a tournament that I could Use. 1 jig head a pack of 6 diferant worms and a sticker is not a good give away. I think we all do this for the same 2 reasons, thie love of the sport and to get back some of the money that we spend on it. With most tournaments out there you cam barley break even!
     If the directors are doing such a great job they should be able to pay back close to 90% at the ramp. and make there money off the membership fee's, and the sponsor money. and if WHAT do i get for my membership any way, at least with BASS and FLW I get a mag. The rest of the tournaments you get CRAP!

[Jason Ammerman]

EXAMPLE= I fished a tournament in the fall last year on a small lake near my house, I will not mention the name of the tournament. I don't want to ruffel any feathers. Note I do not blame the director of this tournament he was just paying what the Organization told him to pay, he just followed orders.

There were 9 boats @ $125.00 each that included big bass.
They paid 1st place only @ $625.00 Big bass was $90.00 that totals $715.00 total pay out.
They took in $1125.00.
Some one made $410.00 for the day. The director at the tournament probly got $3.00 a boat and the rest went to the home office.

Thats more than most of the guys fishing make in a week at there jobs.

Thats to much money for one 9 boat tournament!

[BASS FISHERMAN]

this is a good things that you do jason!!fishin peeople has the rite to no whuts goin on sume of them tournie surcuts are makin out big time with fishurmans $$$$$  one prize yous fourgot to mention is those nice mercury hats i has a mercury but not of them dan optic max i can think of one curcut thats has 100 boats and thay pay out the looong places but with low dollar amounts!!then give out thoose nice hats like i ststed above along with bags of worms,oil an the like
winners shoold be gettin the payday and the hats an stuff shoold be givin out at sineup time

[djkimmel]

A tournament organization is a business. There are a few circuits that are run by overworked volunteers, but the long running ones are usually the business ones.

Each business comes up with their own business model that they believe will make them successful and keep them running longterm.

If they are right, they get participation and are successful. If they aren't right, they don't make it. If they are growing, then a large number of anglers are obviously happy with what they are doing and how they are doing it.

I would say, for example, a circuit drawing 100 boats is doing something right. If you personally don't like how they do things, there are other circuits - go fish them. That's why there are other circuits. If the original circuit keeps drawing boats, that just means that others are happy with their setup. The circuit will NOT change their business model and setup because of one or two people, only if their participation goes away. We can all see for ourselves who's growing and who isn't.

Payback is just one factor people consider when they choose a circuit. Lake, dates and times often are more important to the overall success than payback. I think number one is good rules, fairly and consistently enforced. I've seen circuits vanish more because of a real or perceived unfairness than I have because of payback.

Put too much emphasis on the 'stars' and you will suffer the regular guy (he/she will stop fishing your events). Seems like many people can accept a balance of things like how you treat your stars verses everyone else, how much you payback including prizes, how you enforce your rules and your lakes and schedule.

I think the good tournament organizations recognize that many anglers want and expect different things, so they either choose to try to balance everything, or they purposefully choose to 'specialize' knowing they will attract some anglers and not others.

There's nothing wrong with asking general questions on here about what angler's expect or would like to see - it might actually help some people to see some opinions - AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT GET PERSONAL.

The problem isn't with opinions and mature debate - the problem is if it turns into a complaint about a specific organization or person. That changes nothing and accomplishes nothing other than get a lot of people worked up. Just keep it real and remember that we all have our own opinions that may or may not be the majority opinion.

[Dan]

Well said Lt. Dan. The Tear Drop has been in operation for around 25 years probably longer. It has always been a 100% ramp payback plus a classic that for the last 10 years has paid around $5,000. We have a small group. Usually around 25 boats up and down from there depending on the year. As was mentioned, it is run by a small group of overworked volunteers. I no longer am involved with the running of the tournaments and have the luxury of just fishing. However, having been one of the overworked volunteers for years I have no problem with paying a tournament director. How much is always a question. Small 20-25 boat tournaments aren't going to generate any kind of director fee that would make anyone give up there day job. If you run the bigger tournament groups, you're going to have to have a larger rake. Nature of the business. I would hope tournaments would, if ask, tell you the % of payback. Then again, as was said, fish them or look elsewhere. Even on the west side there are a lot of tournaments to pick from.

[Jason Ammerman]

This is not aimed at the small clubs. Without the small clubs bass fishing would not be were it is today. This is aimed at the larger groups that advertise national sponsors, boat give aways, and miss lead fisherman to think that you get more than you do. As far as the take it or leave it statement, That's fine but when there are organizations putting on 600 events in Michigan It is hard even for the small groups to draw a good amount of anglers to there tournaments, because you can't find a lake or date that is not taken by some outher group.
       As fisherman we need to stand up and tell the directors that we want more than what we are getting. If it was not for the fisherman the directors would not have the sponsors. They get $ because we show up for the tournaments. BUT WHAT DO WE GET? The chance to fish for 60% to 70% of the money that we put in come on do the math. It dose not add up.
       If all of the tournaments are so good and the fisherman get back what is right then put it on this site.
      If you are a Owner of a tournament series or you work for one as a director. List your Real Pay back here. Not what you could win in prizes or or crap we want to see the CASH numbers. I know the guys we are talking about are reading this. If you have nothing to hide SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!

[bosshawg]

every year same old stuff. gets tiring guys. if so questionable, become a TD and find out for yourself.......not a easy task even at a small club level. TD and staff(if any) they do the running around to get sponsors, give aways, etc. darn straight they should get something in return. like other post said don't fish circuit that you have questionables on. that easy - GIVE IT UP!!!!!

peace & bass wishes 

[djkimmel]

My point I want to be very clear on - if they are drawing the participants, then you are not in the majority and they will not change just for you or just for a few guys.

They will operate their business how they feel they need to and if they are meeting the needs of enough anglers, they will be successful. I will not blame them for doing what they feel they need to be successful.

You've made your point about what you personally want to see. If you've been reading on other boards, then you know already they will not be meeting your request, so please do not use my board for trying to force something that we all already know will not happen - definitely not this way.

I understand you and some others may feel if you keep up some pressure, they'll eventually give in, but I think would then be ignoring that they continue to grow and be more successful. That should be clear enough that what they are doing is working. Therefore, they have no reason to change what they are doing at this time.

The problem with this thread is that it is obviously aimed at a specific organization. This is a horse that has already been beaten dead many times over. You have every right to believe in certain things, but they also have every right to do things the way the feel they need to. Let's respect those differences and move on.

I believe you mentioned a new circuit you will be supporting that better meets your own personal needs. Sounds like a good way to find what you are looking for in a circuit. If there are a good number of other anglers looking for what the new circuit offers, then they'll draw anglers. You can use the Other Tournaments board here to talk about the circuit and schedule to help get the word out.

I would add that no one circuit can dominate all the lakes and dates. Even under the new procedure for 2007 there are limitations in how many permits or holds one group can put on a lake early in the year. Get your dates and lakes figured out early and put in the requests. Be ready for next year too because we'll be able to request permits on November 1, 2007 for 2008.

[Jason Ammerman]

This has not been focused on one group, just tournaments in general. I am new to the board and did not relize that this has been coverd. Just thought I would see if anyone else feels the way I do. Who are the guys trying to shut this subject down, I can't tell who they are behind the alias names. No reasone to stop asking questions.

[djkimmel]

Again, general discussion is okay, but everyone who has been around knows who you are talking about and has seen this topic beaten to death over on lakestclair.net already for a couple years now to no positive gain.

I don't want GreatLakesBass.com to become another forum that repeatedly beats the same few topics to death for a few people's entertainment or unknown motive at the expense of the majority of members who don't like or enjoy those kinds of things.

You may have missed all the 'fun' over on lakestclair.net, but a lot of us here didn't miss it and don't want to head down that road again. It drives people away. I don't want to drive anyone away including you.

I won't shut any thread down as long as it is within the rules and spirit of a friendly and productive board.

[MBell]

Jason, this crap get stirred up every winter.  It always starts the same then it gets out of hand.  It does nothing to effect that organization, just wastes the moderators time.  I know you said this was about tournaments in general, but everyone knows who your are talking about.  I personally don't fish that trail anymore based on your points amongs other things that have happened.  The best thing to do is just fish other trails.  I feel that a tournament organization should post their cash at the ramp payout % and any decent trail with sponsors should be able to handle at least 90% payback.  I also think that the free entry is enough compensation for the directors of local trails.  If the director is being paid beyond the entry fee they shouldn't be fishing, just my opinion. 
-Matt     

[djkimmel]

And let's leave it at that.

[motocross269]

Try motocross racing if you want to get the shaft on payouts..I could go into details, but I won't...Bass fishing pays WAAAAAAY more, and you aren't at a really high risk for injury. 
There are only a small percentage of people that can make a living at their hobby in any sport..When we are young we have this star in the sky feeling that we are going to be a pro and set the world on fire.  More then likely it isn't going to happen.  Just be glad that you have the health and financial means to compete...And as Dan put it..If your not happy move on...If you are in it for the money chances are you are going to be sorely dissappointed. Take a look at what the middle of the pack pro Bass fisherman makes (FLW tour level)...You would make way more working at Home Depot.  Tournament fishing is suppose to be fun..the money is just a bonus. Promoters have to make a profit or there won't be any tournaments to fish.
I am new to Tournament fishing, and this is just my observation from what I have seen on this Forum..Money, Money, Money....Have fun, Fish Hard..And the Money will come.

[BassWidow]

It seems quite simple to me.  When you hand over your entry fee you are basically stating that you are in agreement with the tournament rules, procedures AND payout.  Why do you think it's your business to know how much a director earns?  Maybe you'd like to tell us all how much you make at your job? 

[Jason Ammerman]

Again this is not about 1 tournament trail! And I would like to know what I am fishing for NO one except BFL, BBT, and Top Bass tell you what you are fishing for at the end of the day. I can't belive that any of you go to the local garage and tell them just fix my truck with out getting an idea of what it is going to coat.

WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO BE PAID BACK AT THE END OF THE DAY.

WHY DON'T SOME OF THE TOUNAMENTS POST THE PAY BACK WITH THE RESULTS.

I don't want to start a problem and for you guys that don't care what the pay back is you just want to fish fine, I would like to know what the the return is on the money I am spending.

[BryanP]

Jason, in one of your earlier posts you mentioned that these organizations get "sponsor money".  I can tell you for a fact that very few, if any of the organizations you are referring to get cash.  It's mostly prizes.  I agree with you in that I could also care less about most giveaways (tackle packs, etc...), altough it is a nice surprise to win a drawing for a trolling motor or a gps unit.  In general, I really don't think giveaways are that big of a draw, even though it is something that organizations like to promote.  So most of the "income" comes from membership fees and entry fees.  Most of the local events seem to pay back 80% of entry fees.  Quite honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to run a tournament circuit.  You're always going to have someone po'd about something.  If you're in it to make money, fish the big tournaments and don't mess around with the 9 boat tournaments.  Even then, unless you win (like a BFL), it's still hard to make a lot of money.  Every tournament I've fished has given payback and number of places at the pre tournament meeting.  Or at least most of them have.

Really, the first thing I look at when deciding to fish a tournament is the lake.  Entry fee and payback are secondary.