Monday, December 16 we get the MDNR response on the bass season

[djkimmel]

Monday, December 16, 2013 is the Warmwater Resources Steering Committee meeting in Lansing where the MDNR will be providing their response to the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation (MBN) bass season proposal. I will report as soon as possible after the meeting is over depending upon their response, any committee action and whether or not it seems like I first need to discuss anything with the MBN board.

At the December 8th presidents' meeting The Bass Federation of Michigan officially voted support of both MBN proposals too, which I was very glad to have happen.

Both federation board presidents will be at the meeting Monday.

Had some nice, brief conversations today at a Michigan Conservation Coalition with Fisheries Chief Jim Dexter, MDNR Parks rep of the day Jason Fleming (Belle Isle State Park) and MDNR Director Keith Creagh.

Found out this morning from Jim Dexter that he has accepted the invitation from B.A.S.S. to come to the Conservation Summit in February at the Bassmaster Classic. I look forward to two days of meetings with many of the state B.A.S.S. Nation conservation directors and state Fisheries Chiefs together - not too many opportunities for this type of meeting so thank you B.A.S.S. and new B.A.S.S. Conservation Director (on January 1, 2014) Gene Gilliland. (This would be an interesting tournament to have a federation or college bass angler win maybe??)

Jim Dexter is also meeting with Mr. KVD in the next week or so about B.A.S.S. tournaments to gather more information - sort of a follow up to Kevin meeting with Governor Snyder, various state legislators and MDNR Director Keith Creagh back in late October.

I haven't even reported any of this yet to the MBN board (I officially represent them at most of the meetings). I hope they forgive me sharing with all of you first since I will report this on Sunday to them. We are making some progress.

Oh, I have some homework for everyone. It's important so please get ready. Assigning it Sunday to MBN members, and Monday to everyone else!

[mikesmiph]

Great job Dan. Please keep up the good work.

[djkimmel]

It's the help this time around that may be making the big difference. I will know for sure tomorrow. Hope it's all a big pleasant surprise with lots of good news to share!

If it is real good news, I have some other ideas people have suggested that I might try to get going too. Depends upon how receptive all the new friends and helpers are!

[Waterfoul]

So Dan, any news yet??

[Skulley]

If Snyder does anything good for Michigan, I hope it would be changing the bass season.  Because since he has become Governor the state has become 3rd worse in unemployment and made it "Right To Work" for less.  Not really good in a state that really has had no economic recovery as other state have.  So all I can hope that is good from him is to change the bass season.  That would actually help economic recovery.  More people would come up here to fish and spend money.  That is what is needed.  Raising minimum wage wouldn't hurt too much either.  That's more of a federal thing though.  Just my 2 cents.  I know a lot of folks don't agree with me, but that's ok.  It's what makes our country great.  We have the freedom to express ourselves.


BD                                             

[Waterfoul]

I agree, more fishing "time" equals more fishermen equals more money spent in Michigan!

As for the other, I hire about 3-5 part times a year and have NEVER started anyone at minimum wage, don't believe it's enough even for most teenagers these days.

[Skulley]

It's not enough for most teens Waterfoul.  I have two teenagers in my house.  The 19 year old works two jobs and goes to school.  She has a car note but lives here for free as long as she is in school.  The 13 year old is a drain on my pocket with travel soccer.  He is good though, so worth the investment.  It's admirable that you hire at a wage better than the current minimum wage.  It doesn't have to be more than a "living wage".  The Center for Economic and Policy Research put out that if minimum wage kept up with worker productivity it would be $21.72 an hour.  That is supposedly for people who currently make $18,000 a year or less.  Interesting...........    If they worked full time they would make Lots of different scenario's can come from that.  Those people who are currently making $18,000 a year would be making $45,000 a year if minimum wage was $21.72 an hour.  Most would say that minimum wage was meant for only entry level employees yet there are a lot of people supporting a family on minimum wage jobs today.  I don't think that small business owners could handle that kind of wage and expect to survive.  It's a double edge sword I guess.  

Back on topic.  What's the verdict??       What was the MDNR's reponse??     


BD                            

[djkimmel]

I can understand there are other issues important to many of us but would like to keep this thread pretty tight on the bass season so we don't get sidetracked, confused or distracted from this one specific topic of the Michigan bass season. So please anymore discussion on other topics, let's have them on the Free for all board, or other most appropriate board depending upon the topic - thanks.

As far as updates from today's meeting... there's not a lot to update. There was a response, but the response is kind of along the lines of we need more time yet. I want to have some discussions with the various persons/groups who have been working with us on this and/or providing help and advice. I can always use advice from people who do this stuff for a living (change).

Both federation presidents were at the meeting too, and we talked for a bit afterwards so I have their input and what they would each like to do next or not do, or possible steps depending upon help and advice we get.

If I have something helpful to share I'll share it as soon as I can.

[Manxfishing]

Dan,

What's the reason that you what the bass season opened earlier?

[TheFishinPollock]

seriously. That is their response to you guys . "we need more time"   Dan??    What exactly do they need more time for.  This is a pretty simple decision.   How long have you guys been talking to them about this?  Months?  The year?
All that time you personaly Dan have put in, the driving all over the state, trips to lansing repeatedly, meetings with everyone under the sun.  Everyone involved on your side should be at the least , irked.  Cause I know I am with this so called "resopnse" .   

How exactly hard is it for these people making the decisions?   You either want  a closed season on bass or you want a catch and release season to encompass the time frame between the seasons catch and keep opener and the closure of the season.   Good lord Dan.   I sure hope you gave someone a piece of your mind.

[Manxfishing]

Well
Really if you read between the lines, It's quit easy to see the answer
There trying to be PC and say No

seriously. That is their response to you guys . "we need more time"   Dan??    What exactly do they need more time for.  This is a pretty simple decision.   How long have you guys been talking to them about this?  Months?  The year?
All that time you personaly Dan have put in, the driving all over the state, trips to lansing repeatedly, meetings with everyone under the sun.  Everyone involved on your side should be at the least , irked.  Cause I know I am with this so called "resopnse" .   

How exactly hard is it for these people making the decisions?   You either want  a closed season on bass or you want a catch and release season to encompass the time frame between the seasons catch and keep opener and the closure of the season.   Good lord Dan.   I sure hope you gave someone a piece of your mind.

[djkimmel]

Dan,

What's the reason that you what the bass season opened earlier?

I get asked that a lot. I've answered it a lot. But one more time (or more) won't hurt. And I am writing this to anyone who is still asking or wondering about this question.

This won't seem short, but the short answer is that I know there is no scientific support for closed bass seasons at statewide levels. That is why 45 of 49 states do NOT have statewide closed bass seasons.

Primary reason - people just want to fish, and there are plenty of people who want to fish for bass whenever they can go. Many of them who are Michigan residents tell me every year at the shows that they do not know that it is illegal to attempt to catch a fish that isn't open. Probably the majority of visitors from other states find our regulations so foreign it just confuses them.

Because closed seasons are not common fish management tools. The reasons are many, but in general, because closed seasons are not the most successful way, or often not successful at all, to manage fish populations, particularly in a way that doesn't cause more harm than good. Because: closed season are an excellent way to eliminate fishing opportunity. And, cause unnecessary and harmful intra-angler conflict too as we get to see every winter all over the Internet as anglers bash each other over who has what intent - the 'guilty by bass boat' syndrome I don't enjoy very much personally.

Take a look at other state fishing guides and you'll see few closed seasons.

We in Michigan voted ~63% in favor of scientific management way back in 1996. We passed Public Act 21 this year to re-support scientific management, yet we have many, many fish regulations that are not scientific. They're social, and/or they're there sometimes because it's simpler to manage fisheries to the lowest common denominator than to allow more opportunity, and use special regulations to manage those few places that need extra management. Social management has a negative impact on our natural resource economy in lost opportunity alone.

We also have many regulations whose sole purpose is to make law enforcement easier at the expense of the vast majority of good anglers who often just want to enjoy their limited fishing time when they can.

I want to end all that, and have been working towards getting us the absolute most fishing opportunity our resources can handle according to science (not what someone's grouchy grandpa thinks ) since I was 18 years old and spoke at my first public meeting. Both bass federations support a year-round bass season. For some reason, some people have forgotten already that we had a large, public survey in 2005 that showed the majority of anglers feel the same way - if the science shows the resource can handle it, they want to go fishing. Just as the citizens of Michigan voted in 1996, and just as major outdoor groups, our Legislature voted and the Governor signed into law this year (and the anti-hunting/anti-fishing animal right groups are going to try to take away from us with a misleading general vote next November).

Somehow, anglers and hunters need to marshal themselves into concentrating on what we have in common, and working together to stop limiting our fishing and hunting opportunity by regulations that are NOT supported by science, and take wasted intra-outdoors person fighting energy and redirect that energy against the animal rights and anti- groups. That is especially important now that they have made Michigan one of their 3 main targets spending millions of dollars to take away our rights.

If 10 people want to fish in Michigan in February for bass, and there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to, then I will work to make it legal. Our natural resource economy is critically important to Michigan with fishing alone adding $2.4 BILLION (with a 'b') in spending in 2011, helping thousand of Michiganders make their living (including me!). - 2011 US Fish & Wildlife Service survey.

Every unnecessary regulation we keep on the books limits our natural resource economy, and removes opportunity from Michiganders, and the large number of people who travel here, or would like to travel here to fish and hunt.

Black bass are the number one gamefish in number of anglers and fishing days in Michigan, only trailing panfish in number of anglers and fishing days. The MDNR showed Monday that 16% of the anglers they recently surveyed said they would fish more if bass season were open longer. Some people seem to think that number is not worth the effort to change anything.

I disagree for many reasons. Here's two - the one I mentioned above - if any number of people want to do it, AND there's no scientific need to block their opportunity to do so, then they should be allowed to fish; and two, a 16% rate of additional fishing effort becomes significant when you realize there were 589,000 bass anglers in who fished in Michigan (from the 2011 USFWS survey). Multiply 16% of that times just 1 more day of fishing times the 2011 USFWS average trip-related spend per fishing day in Michigan of $39.00, you're talking almost $3.7 MILLION more per year into our natural resource economy. Two more days of fishing each = $7.35 MILLION. Three more days of fishing would be $11 MILLION more into our Michigan economy to motels, hotels, gas stations, food stores, many levels of our economy not just tackle companies.

That's just from trip-related expenses for those particular days. There could be additional increase in more fishing licenses sold, more tackle, rods, reels, gear, possibly more boats bought, all because anglers could start fishing for their favorite species earlier in the year, which studies have shown can increase participation, particularly the likelihood that the angler chooses to buy a fishing license that year and go fishing. The actual increase to our Michigan economy could be a lot more. More fishing participation means more money to take care of our natural resources.

I don't think those are insignificant numbers and benefits not worth allowing. I had some brilliant person from another outdoor group accuse me at the meeting Monday of only caring about money because I cited this type of information. I thought he was incredibly biased, short-sighted, and probably not a very good choice to represent major group rep for not understanding that this is all part of the topic, an obviously important part. It shouldn't take rocket science to comprehend this, especially after already having the MDNR present at that same meeting information about their recognition of the value and importance of our natural resources economy, and the outdoor businesses and retailers to Michigan AND the MDNR's bottom line.

The only reasons I can think anyone would be against allowing year-round bass fishing in Michigan would be the most obvious ones:
1) fear of change - always the thing that makes these processes way harder than they ever need to be ('why change it, it's always been that way' love that excuse - okay, whatever grandpa, can I borrow the keys to the Model T? or 'if it ain't broke...' stupidest excuse not to do many things after the 'it's always been this way' - I get to enjoy hearing both of these often...);
2) Thinking everyone else thinks just like you. They don't. People think all kinds of different things and just because it is different isn't a good reason to say no or feel like not doing it. It is fairly common throughout the public process to hear people claim 'facts' that are really just them assuming or trying to convince everyone that everyone except you thinks exactly the same as them. I get accused of this all the time because apparently people assume I only talk to the other 7 bass tournament anglers in Michigan... yeah, whatever...;
3) Bias and prejudice. Got to experience this well once again Monday, because I'm an evil bass tournament angler after all (guilty by bass boat who only cares about money... ) many people who use excuses that seem to be from options 1 or 2 often are really being driven by bias and prejudice. They just aren't honest enough to admit it, though it usually comes out anyway. If you want to verify the problem isn't really facts or science, just get a number of them in the same room and let them think they're among their own kind. The bias and prejudice will come out and show itself as in 'everybody hates bass tournaments anglers, nobody likes you guys, nobody likes bass tournaments, everybody knows that' (yeah, I heard this from one group rep Monday - not the exact quote but the key point he wanted us to know was that EVERYONE feels the same way he does). No polls, surveys or scientific studies were cited by him that I recall... This was his real reason for being against any change to the bass season. Not science. Not facts. Not much thought or care there for the tens of thousands of bass anglers who just want to go fishing either, or for the MDNR (>90% of their budget from user fees), or the businesses and Michiganders who rely on our natural resource economy. Just 'I hate you guys' so I'm against anything you want. And he says I'm the one who doesn't care about all the other stuff... Solid thinking good for us all, right? yeah, uh huh...

So there you are. Some people want to go bass fishing whenever they can, and I believe they ought to be able to. A bonus would be that I could start crappie fishing in the spring again without having to worry about CO's showing up because I happen to own a 'bass' boat. Love that 'guilty by bass boat stuff... Love it!!

The simplest, most common sense of it all is if a body of water isn't completely closed to all fishing, it is guaranteed you will have conflict and negative issues if you have regulations that allow fishing for some species in that water while having regulations that say it is illegal to attempt to take other species in that same body of water. You end up where we have been for decades. If you own one 'type' of boat you can fish there and will have little problem. Own another type of boat and you can't even fish there because there will be people accusing you of breaking the law. So we've set up a system that limits angling opportunity even more than it first appears, and guarantees intra-angler conflicts. The same problem exists because of your fishing method - I can't believe we've gotten to the point where someone fishing with a 5 inch lure on Lake St. Clair is a 'legal' pike angler in the spring (pike open all year) while someone fishing with a 6 inch lure is 'scumbag, lawbreaking muskie poacher' in people's mind because muskie are illegal to 'target' until June 1 and EVERYBODY KNOWS that a 6 inch lure is a muskie lure!! If you don't know that it has gotten this bad then you need to know, it has been this bad for many, many years.

It's gotten to the point almost where if you're an innovative angler who spends a lot of money and effort to be a real good angler, you end being the most restricted angler of all if you want to avoid accusations and conflict. The only safe thing to do in Michigan is to limit your fishing to the 3rd Friday in June until September 30th. It's a lot harder during that small window for people who don't like 'your kind' to accuse you of things or harass you.

Ridiculous. Stupid. Wasteful. Harmful. It has to stop ASAP.

[djkimmel]

PS: Unless I state it clearly otherwise, my comments on this website are my own personal comments and not the position or statement of either the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation or The Bass Federation of Michigan.

I've never stopped working for improvement to bass fishing and Michigan bass fishing whether I was a conservation rep, or just some guy. When I am the rep though I don't want people to take my comments as their policy or opinion unless I state that it is. So don't blame them.

[djkimmel]

However ANYTHING ELSE I say IS the official position, comment, opinion and policy of GreatLakesBass.com. The 'boss' lets me get away with that. We're a little more radical on here...

The position of GreatLakesBass.com is that people should be able to fish on any Michigan water that is not totally closed to fishing, and not have to worry about mind-reading accusers and law officers going after them as long as they don't KEEP a fish that is not in season. Let people fish whenever they can, and let them enjoy it. Closed seasons are not good fish management tools, especially when they can't easily and clearly be enforced. Size and/or bag limits have been proven to be much more effective for most species on most waters.

If there's a specific location that excessive fishing of any type might harm a species, let's look at the available science, and if the science supports it we can talk about special regulations. If not, let people fish. There's plenty of water with plenty of fish to go around.

GreatLakesBass.com will cooperate with other groups on some compromises when it appears the compromise brings more groups into a better, faster successful increase in fishing opportunity, or if the science clearly indicates a special regulation is needed. Which is why we support the two Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation proposals.

[Kal-Kevin]

Dan at least I did not see their old reason for not having a open season in your posting. I always love their reason they use to use "it is to hard on the fish and our stocking of the lakes!" What has it been now 15 years since they last stocked bass in this state.

Sorry got of subject a little there, I think your doing a great job so far my friend we are proud of you.

[djkimmel]

Bass take care of themselves on most lakes.

[djkimmel]

I have an update on this. Still trying to figure out exactly what it is. As soon as I find the words I'm comfortable with that I think are accurate and as fair as I can make at the moment I will post them. Might be better news?

[Redbone]

IMO. You have to get away from talking about money gained from an open bass season. The only way change is going to happen is with a scientific approach. The 39 dollar a day is a false picture for most anglers. It might cost 39 but it is not 39 over and above what I might spend on a daily basis anyway. The x amount days of open fishing is going to bring millions approach is inaccurate. And the reason your Getting a negative response.

I have to stop  . Typing on an I pad is horrible .

[ROI Outdoors]

Uniform Bass, Pike and Walleye season is the most simple, fair, and reasonable compromise.  I'd stay away from anything that involves a "year round C&R" because it only opens the door for other vested groups to object - which from what I hear they did just that.  The bottom line is if we don't organize and get on the same page nothing will ever get done......

[djkimmel]

My finger tips on my right hand are sore from texting. Some days I refuse to text anymore.

I'm a known bass tournament angler, so it doesn't matter what I say with some people. My lips move, I'm lying or who cares... Believe me, I'm trying to change that. For a long time now.

I'm not using the value part out in the general public as often or as a primary driver. I think most of you understand it is important. I hope you do. Since the MDNR is funded over 90% by user fees, they eventually know it is important.

This year, since the first major meeting I attended with higher up people, it is THEM who have been approaching me about the potential increase to our Natural Resource Economy through more bass fishing and most often, through more bass tournaments!!!! I've been a little taken aback by it all year (though possibly refreshingly and pleasantly so because who likes to be an 'undesireable' really??).

It started at the meeting in Gaylord in March when both the MDNR Deputy Director and a Commissioner on the NRC - both strangers to me before that - approached me out of the blue about that very topic - 'Hi Dan, I wanted to meet you to talk about bass tournaments. I would think bass tournaments would be a great way to increase our natural resource economy.' It's been that way at a number of meetings with higher level MDNR including the Deputy Director and the Director, with several NRC members, with the Governor and a number of State Legislators, even had a representative for one of our Congress people track me down at a meeting to talk about bass tournaments and our economy. MUCC has also made comments to me that they are willing to help us with a possible policy that supports attracting more bass tournaments. (I always expected it to happen on its own someday - maybe I thought I'd be in my 70s though, not my 50s before it happened?!?)

The MUCC Executive Director is the person who swung the Governor's office all the way over into getting us involved in talks about Belle Isle - a potential tournament-friendly public access site, and looking at fixing up some existing boat ramps (lots of work to do in both those areas before there is anything concrete, if ever, to talk about), AND suddenly Kevin VanDam is meeting with the Governor, key State Legislators, the MDNR Director and Pure Michigan, soon to be followed by meeting with the MDNR Fisheries Chief to talk about B.A.S.S. and Michigan. (I sure didn't expect any of that this year though I tried hard to help it happen.)

Believe me when I say I am NOT driving the discussion in the direction of the economics of bass fishing. I am sometimes answering questions and providing information, but sometimes I'm not even involved like the discussions about the topic between the Governor and MUCC, and KVD and the above parties. Those happened without me. It has kind of passed me by now and is a living, moving thing all on its own.

I do refer to economics however as part of my whole presentation when I'm in the meetings like the one Monday with the representatives of other major fishing groups. We all know trout, salmon and walleye in particular, have owned a BIG chunk of the MDNR spend over a long number of years, yet more effort and impact comes from inland lake fishing, especially nowadays with panfish and bass even stronger in the #1 and #2 spots in number of anglers and number of fishing days.

The MDNR has stated they will increase outreach to panfish, perch and bass anglers, and part of that is recognizing their own polls that a majority of anglers have told them they want more attention paid to panfish, bass and catfish. The MDNR is listening.

That doesn't mean the other fishing groups will just say, sure, that's fair, go ahead and spend more time with bass. All those other fish species are not as robust all over as bass and panfish. The trout, salmon, walleye, pike and muskie need more help compared to bass. So, to make sure we get the attention we need to more bass opportunity, we need to continue to explain why bass, that 'don't need much help,' still need time and resources for things like providing us with a year-round season like 45 other states. Even though more groups than ever are supportive, or at least not fully against some changes, it doesn't mean we aren't having to still dig in our nails and pull ourselves forward with some effort. Lots of people have been used to bass just being there... If you think it isn't not a major effort, you should come to some of these meetings to see why I usually drive home with a slight headache, and a million questions, changes and plans running through my head.

So even when I don't bring up economics, it comes up. If you look at the studies, and things like the US Fish & Wildlife studies, you will see how big economics is in the outdoors. It HAS to be. And I actually think a lot more people are understanding it now than maybe we give credit to. I think our responsibility is also to continue the progression to more knowledgeable, and issues and impacts-aware outdoors people. We better, because the anti-hunting/anti-fishing and animal rights groups are spending millions of dollars in Michigan right now to take all this away from us so we wouldn't need to discuss it anymore!

I spend more time on the scientific side of things, especially the more open and broad the arena we are working in. The one critical thing we all need to remember is that A WHOLE BUNCH of our regulations are not scientific, but social! Talking about science doesn't get you very far if you're talking to people who are just thinking 'you're not my Grandpa and my Grandpa said ______' (fill in the blank with whatever old wives tale many people believe AND fight change over). If people decide science isn't true, then you have zero leverage. I still run into that A LOT! (It has improved, but we have room for lots more improvement!)

We have no choice but to use multiple approaches because of all the avenues of resistance, and acceptance we have to travel. No one approach will work for all of it. We have almost as much success - sometimes more - using methods other than scientific and economic (you will see a big example of another 'method' shortly on another topic). Believe me, we use every single possible approach we can that appears to be needed, with adjustments depending upon the audience of the day. If we didn't, we'd fail.

What has been tough about this year is hearing all the positive talk from the higher levels about our sport, but running into the opposite when we get down to meetings with few or no top people in them. I can only say that has made it difficult for me personally to not seem up and down on this project and long time goal. I don't want to be, but it's hard to come out of one meeting thinking WOW! and the next meeting thinking CRAP, we haven't gotten anywhere!

The swings aren't that wide often but it can feel like that after 25+ years of working on this particular topic, and 33 years of speaking at public meetings and trying to make things better, not just on the bass season but related things like wetlands, aquatic plant treatments, combined sewer overflows, public access and many more (which is why it stung me pretty bad to have someone accuse me of only caring about money - I needed to share that with you guys to get it off my chest faster - I know that's not me but I'm a redhead - my heat was up... which is not good in most meetings - though sometimes useful - "uuhh, don't make me angry... you won't like me when I'm angry!" with red skin though not green ).

I appreciate any and all advice. I do consider, and often learn or adjust from it. I've sought out tons of advice this week, and believe me, I've received some awesome help, ideas and suggestions this week. I think we have a really good plan on how we are going forward on our end with multiple options depending upon what happens in the next 30 days or so. Part of that will be getting other groups involved directly, speaking before new groups including some who seem very receptive, or at least very fair, and some new partners who are going to 'sign on' and start taking a more active role in making it clear to all but the most lug-headed that this is not just an issue of a '100 bass tournament anglers.'

It never has been, and it never will be. This is my state. This is your state. We want what's best for it because we care. Anyone who knows and is real about anglers and hunters knows the people who care the most about their fish and game are the people who pursue their favorite(s) fish or game. It is OUR FEES that are paying over 90% of the money used to take care of them!

PS: there's a bill on the Governor's desk right now (we helped get it passed) that creates a new group and fund from the $1 extra fee (we also helped get passed) on certain hunting and fishing licenses that will be used to market the importance of the contributions of anglers and hunters to our natural resources and very important natural resources economy to everyone in Michigan. It is modeled after a similar and highly successful program in Colorado that has made a major impact in how the public perceives hunters and anglers. Considering we are now one of the three 'battleground states' in the sights of the major anti's this is one real important victory. Next up is the petition drive you're all going to help me with.