AGM Problems... Is it me?!

[Victor Cerabone]

I installed a Sear PM1 a few years ago.  I wanted the PM1 because I run 2x Humminbird SI units and livewells all day long.  On small inland lakes I seldom crank the big motor.  My trusty lead acid battterys would die under these conditions. This battery is my main/cranking battery.

The First PM1 worked great throught from Spring to Fall in 2012.  I charged the battery with my old Schumacher charger.  It took a charger and stayed charged... no problems.

I winterized the boat as normal.  The boat lives in the garage.

The next spring the PM1 was dead.  I took it back to sears.  They replaced it with no issues.

The second PM1 also worked great for the 2013 season.  I charged the unit with a new Schumacher charger.  This unit has a special AGM setting.

The battery was again in the garage this winter.  Every few weeks I charged it.  Now the battery voltage is at about 11.5V and it will not charge.  The charger says the battery is %100 charged.  The voltmeter tells me a different story.

I also tried the "jump the battery on the charger" with a know good battery.  This is trick for AGM batteries that get very low on voltage.  This did not work.

Do I have 2 dud PM1s?   Are these AGM batteries extra sensative to how they are charged?  I need some help!   Is there a bettery product our there for me?

Thanks,

Vic

[dartag]

with 11.5 fully charged you could have a bad cell. Normally a bad cell is around 10 volts.   Probably the best thing is take them to a battery store and have them load tested.  That should tell you. 

Good luck.   

[Slipkey]

I've seen numerous posts over at BBC on the PM1 and I know there are those that swear by them.  They seem pretty finicky as far as charging and maintenance, from what I can see. I looked through their "approved charger" list and my Minn Kota 460 wasn't on that list, even though it has an AGM setting and pushes 15 amps per bank.   Does your charger push 10 amps per bank?  I know they supposedly have a requirement of being hooked up to motors that are equipped with a 40 amp alternator.  It could be a combination of factors.  Do you pull it out of the boat when you store it?  If you're storing directly on the concrete instead of raising it off the floor with 2x4' or plywood, that can cause premature battery failure as well - even more so I believe for AGM.

[Waterfoul]

The "battery on the cement floor kills it" it is no longer an issue with today's battery cases (that is straight from my DEKA factory rep).  I still store mine on plywood simply because if they leak at all the acid will eat the lime out of the concrete and leave a nasty mark.

Never been a Diehard fan... though they are JCI batteries and should hold up.  Yes, AGM batteries are very picky about how they are charged.  I'd check with a battery expert like someone at Batteries Plus or similar to see if you are causing your own issues.

[Slipkey]

The "battery on the cement floor kills it" it is no longer an issue with today's battery cases (that is straight from my DEKA factory rep).  I still store mine on plywood simply because if they leak at all the acid will eat the lime out of the concrete and leave a nasty mark.

That's interesting and good to know, Mike.  I wonder if that's just high end batteries or applies to lawn mower batteries, etc.

[Victor Cerabone]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I checked, my PM1 is still under the three year warranty.  I going to have it checked at Sears.

I have suspected the charger is the issue.  I have been too cheap to buy a new one.  It might make sense this time.

I also stand that the "discharge on concrete" thing is no longer an issue on battery's, but I also use a piece of wood just because battery that leak can get messy.

[dartag]

I was at BPS on Saturday.  They had onboard chargers on sale.  Not sure how many banks. 

[Cy]

The "battery on the cement floor kills it" it is no longer an issue with today's battery cases (that is straight from my DEKA factory rep).  I still store mine on plywood simply because if they leak at all the acid will eat the lime out of the concrete and leave a nasty mark.

That's interesting and good to know, Mike.  I wonder if that's just high end batteries or applies to lawn mower batteries, etc.

Slipkey,

That has been true for all batteries for many many years.  The idea that batteries are discharged by concrete was true when batteries came in wood cases, I don't know how long ago that was but they have been in plastic cases as long as I can remember.  It is amazing how long some of those old wives tales last, I remember as a kid I wasn't allowed to swim after eating too!

Cy

[Slipkey]

Slipkey,

That has been true for all batteries for many many years.  The idea that batteries are discharged by concrete was true when batteries came in wood cases, I don't know how long ago that was but they have been in plastic cases as long as I can remember.  It is amazing how long some of those old wives tales last, I remember as a kid I wasn't allowed to swim after eating too!

Cy

LOL.  You're right.  I think I was told that by my dad back in high school when I had the battery out of the '73 Camaro I was rebuilding - and they were already plastic cases then.  I've just accepted it as gospel since then, I guess. Consider the chain of the wive's tales broken with me.

[djkimmel]

There will probably always be a few people willing to keep the THINGS YOU SHOULD or SHOULDN'T DO (i.e. confusion and misinformation) alive!!

That is definitely odd behavior from an AGM battery. AGM are supposed to last longer. But they are more particular about charging too. One of the other reasons I've just stuck with wet cell. Never know when you'll be forced into charging with whatever is available. I only have room for 3 batteries and I have a 24-36v MotorGuide that I usually run in 24 so everything else goes on the 3rd battery I use for the big motor but I sometimes kick into 36v when I need it. The Deka 31 size wet cells have been what I've run for over 10 years (2 sets of batteries in that time).

It kind of sounds like that particular model might be prone to freezing? Or... you're just lucky right now...!?!

It actually is helpful to have access to battery experts who know about fishing and can advise you on the best battery size and type for your situation. They're not everywhere but they're around.

Can you fit a size 31? If that isn't what you're using - I'm not familiar with that model?

I always recommend Deka Batteries considering that my battery issues vanished when I switched over 10 years ago. They have all 3 types of batteries. I use their information all to the time to recommend a good fit or help answer specific battery questions.

Here's a helpful marine battery guide by brand and model of outboards. They also recommend going to the higher capacity battery if using for additional electronics and you, and many of us, do (PDF): http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0406MarineApplicationslayout.pdf

They report that some outboard charging systems aren't compatible with non-wet cell batteries. I know my Yamaha recommends against sealed, AGM and gel cell batteries.

[YpsiBass]

I was at BPS on Saturday.  They had onboard chargers on sale.  Not sure how many banks. 

This is very good news for me. Hope they're still on sale this Saturday...

[21XDC]

I suggest this charger for the money>>>  http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM6176082605?hlSellerId=22951?ci_src=184425893&ci_sku=SPM6176082605&sid=IDx20131030xMPAPxCPA28

[21XDC]

This link provides a lot of good battery info>>> http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrailerBoats_batteryguide_201105.pdf

I suggest you keep it saved for later questions.

[Victor Cerabone]

Dan, I am running a group 31.  I even had to put a heavier tray in to hold it.  I run 3x lead acids for my TM and this AGm for starting and electronics.  When it works, it work great.

I'm seeing a trend... it looks like this thing needs to be plugged into the charger all the time.  It looks like I will have get a new charger.

21XDC... You are the second person to suggest the NOCO charger.  I'll check it out.

Thanks guys!

[Cy]

Guys,

I took a closer look at that charger.  They look awesome but there are some not so good reviews on Amazon and most of the those reviews come from guys with boats.  I haven't read many of the reviews and I know several people that post reviews on Amazon are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.  I am not saying that you shouldn't get one, I am just saying do your homework and make sure it is the correct charger for you.  Several of the reviews talked about the charger shutting off after 24 hours, so that might not be the best option for that AGM battery.

Cy

[Fishmael]

I still go with the Napa batteries.  $89 last time I bought them.  I think $79 for the cranking battery.  They are sourced from Deka and have lasted 5 years per battery every time I have bought them.  Considering that track record, I will continue to take the "cheap" route.

[djkimmel]

Guys,

I took a closer look at that charger.  They look awesome but there are some not so good reviews on Amazon and most of the those reviews come from guys with boats.  I haven't read many of the reviews and I know several people that post reviews on Amazon are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.  I am not saying that you shouldn't get one, I am just saying do your homework and make sure it is the correct charger for you.  Several of the reviews talked about the charger shutting off after 24 hours, so that might not be the best option for that AGM battery.

Cy

I always read reviews for most significant or important purchases and decisions. Then, I spend time trying to figure out who didn't read the directions, who's not... well, trying to be nice... too 'bright,' who's lying and/or trying to smear the product for some unknown reason and where the probable average, most common truth lies...

Wish we could trust reviews but I have seen plenty of information stating 50 to 70% of the online reviews are lies for reasons other than product or business review. I've seen enough of them that I know are full of baloney to know there's something to that for sure. I can remember that was one of my main frustrations with the Internet way, way back when I thought Compuserve WAS the Internet. It was stupid, ridiculous on there with employees from competing companies smearing each others' products to the point where I would make my decision sometimes mostly based on the company that didn't do this, or did it the least!

Even recently I have seen employees of certain companies 'busted' on well-known forums for fake-smearing their competitor. That is a big turn off for me. Big. For many, many reasons.

I like knowing people on trusted sites where I can ask and be as sure as possible that I'm getting good, honest answers. I have my own favorite products and I try to promote them but I will not lie to any of you that ask me about anything. If I say why I like something that is exactly why I like something. I wish it was true that we could all believe everything on the Internet...

[21XDC]

LOL 

[Waterfoul]

Battery life is also very much dependent on how much you actually USE your boat.  I use my boat at least 3-4 times a week most weeks in the summer.  That means my batteries are getting drawn down and then recharged a lot more often than most people I know.  Every battery has only so many charging cycles in it's lifetime, so a person like me LOVES it if I can get 3 full seasons or maybe part of a 4th season on a set of batteries.  If you use your boat a lot like I do, going the "cheap" route is usually not the best route as those batteries don't tend to last as long with a fishing schedule like mine.

The keys to longer batter life:  Good batteries,  a good [correct] charger, and add water when needed (low water will kill flooded lead acids quick).

[jgip087]

I've tried AGMs and lead acid batteries.  I will stick with the lead acid.  I've had my starting battery (purchased at Wal Mart) for 4 years and it hasn't died once.  I run 3 electronics, livewells, running lights, lights to rig my gear, and crank the big motor without a problem; I do carry a jump it in my boat at all times just in case it happens.  I also get excellent charge out of them for my trolling motor.  Probably fish 2-3 times a week.  I highly recommend a battery tender to automatically charge them whenever it is needed.  I really believe it extends the life of a battery.