Coast Guard boarding today.

[Mike S.]

Probably  not.

[bigjc]

You guys are welcome to think what you will, but for me, I am absolutely infuriated by men/women entrusted with authority who forget that they are charged with the task to "protect and serve," but let that authority go to their heads.

I have been stopped quite a few times on the water.  Some of those times, I was doing something that I shouldn't have been doing and I understood and didn't have any problem with the officer.  However there have been a few times that I was stopped for BS reasons, or no reason at all.

Our Nation became the Great Nation that it is/was because it was an experiment in self-government.  Government of the people and by the people.  When I encounter an ignorant POS who doesn't understand this simple Governmental truth, I feel compelled to challenge them (legally of course),  respect is earned not imputed by a badge or position.  This approach has cost me to pay fines in the past, but its well worth the money to have an opportunity to educate a moron.

I have challenged a no wake violation in court, and i have challenged an officer on the water, but in order to do so, you must be certain that you understand the law and can demonstrate your compliance with it.  There are many in the law enforcement community who understand the duty they are charged with and my hat is off to them.  The other idiots should be fired, or even imprisoned.  

[djkimmel]

I was stopped on Belleville last week buy the coast guard (yea I said Coast Guard).... the only thing they got me on was not having 3 finger width of space between the numbers and letters on the MC numbers.... go figure.... It was during the week I thought they were just board...

The Coast Guard on Belleville Lake?!? What the blazes was the Coast Guard doing on Belleville Lake?? That is a weird one for sure...

[djkimmel]

bigjc, I can understand your feelings. I have questioned officers more than once. I've regretted it a couple times.

Other times I was irritated enough to want to challenge them but had a feeling things might go a lot worse if I did challenge them based on the behavior being demonstrated already. Even if you know they know that whole incident is BS they have guns and they can make your life hard if they feel like it. That's just how some people are in all walks of life...

A few times I have been in a ridiculous situation and just sat there with my mouth shut waiting for it to be over... that is because I seem to attract a good, weird, ridiculous encounter every couple years... I may write a book some day about it.

I have also had a number of okay interactions and even some funny ones (or at least, they ended funny though they may not have started that way...). I've met lots of COs and other agency officers that I actually liked and enjoyed talking to. There are even a few I can call and ask questions when I need to be sure about things. I prefer that to the opposite end of the spectrum. I also figure it doesn't hurt to try to facilitate some information sharing and putting a little effort into trying to make things better for all of us who just want enjoy a day of fishing or hunting.

[djkimmel]

I was out on Muskegon this morning with my dad. During a run across the lake, I was stopped by the Coast Guard. I wasn't doing anything wrong, it was just a routine check. After checking everything, he asked for my throwable.  I have one, it was just in the port side rod locker. He told me that it HAS to be on deck at all times. They told me to sit on it while driving. Has anybody else ever heard that?

Was their throwable on the deck?

Personally... I've found from my own experience that pointing that kind of stuff out doesn't actually win you any points... it can win you less fishing time and various scary threats...

[Skulley]

I got boarded yesterday by the Coast Guard.  They just did a routine safety check and asked me some survey questions.  They were impressed by the age of my boat and how well I have kept it up.  I did say it still was in need of some work but I did say them was do I work on my boat or go out fishing??  They agreed with my choice about going out fishing.  They checked me as I was like the only boat that was more than a mile out from shoreline.  Most boats were up shallow.  I just had to check a couple of off shore rock piles that I had some luck on where I had found pre spawn females staging on these rock piles.  It didn't disappoint either.  There were some big girls there.  During my conversation with them they had told me how upset people get when they get boarded.  They told me that I was about the "coolest customer" they ever had so far this year.  I told them that if they had passed me by and didn't check, I would have been disappointed which I would have been.  I get checked once a year by the DNR so as to keep my credentials up and I usually get pulled over at least once a year by Wayne County in the Lower Detroit River just for routine safety checks.  My advice to any one out there is to COOPERATE!!! Their job is hard enough with out getting hassled.  It's for your safety.


BD                         

[fish hound]

Pretty much SOP for them to disarm and empty gun. Happened to me coming back into Muskegon from White during a tx. Mine was in glove box, which is where boat registration was. Asked if he could board, said yes, took gun handed it to there boat and finished inspection.  Asked to see our life jackets, we pointed at our chests, we had em on. Gave me the same crap about throwable and somebody could sit on it, I wanted to ask if he wanted to sit that much higher running lake MI in a bassboat but didn't.  I'm with you about all the looks from other boats like you're a criminal, I carried the inspection paperwork to the weigh-in cause I expected to get protested for a violation.  Last thing he did was put empty gun, slide locked back, empty mag and 8 loose rounds in the glove box and quickly left my boat and untied.  I understand SOPs (USMC vet) but c'mon.

[djkimmel]

But... it sounds like they didn't have you turn around with your hands over your head and then remove the gun from behind with no warning from your actual person. That is pretty unnerving sounding to me. Seems it could have been handled much better.

[Mike S.]

I would have been mad had they emptied the magazine and given me everything back loose. That's garbage there. But, hey, they're doing their job. Had I been a bass boat driving drug smuggler, I guess there could have been a problem.

[motocross269]

I was going to say Waterfoul knew about the change for inflatables. He's the one that told me about it.

Yeah, I wasn't real happy about being disarmed in the manner I was. I was thinking to myself "What did I do wrong? I was told by the Police officer at my cpl class that I could carry on my boat,  but these guys are acting like I'm being taken in to custody".  There were a  outlet of smaller fishing boats nearby, and they sat and watched the whole show. It was embarrassing. I know one thing, I will never carry on LSC.  Not having seen the Boarder Patrol out there too. You would think that after I showed my license they would have figured I was good to go. I went through the class, was able to pass the gun board's criteria to carry a concealed weapon, so why mess with me like that?

If you get stopped in an Auto or boat and the cops are going to do more than just say "Hi" chances are they are going to want you to disarm....It's for your safety and theirs....They could find something that may cause an escalation or things could get testy and it's always better to have everything out in the open right from the start........literally.....
The way they went about disarming you is the safest for everyone involved......Think about the kid in the drivers seat of a car that is getting pulled over and is nervous so struggles dropping his magazine and clearing the chamber....Could be ugly...To he honest I would just as soon have the officer disarm me with my hands on my head that way there is no misinterpretation of the events and I catch a bullet from some rookie......Having the LEO clear the weapon is pretty much what I have heard at all the NRA classes that I have sat in on....

I will be training in June with Border patrol and Local LEOs....I will ask for more clarification at that event....but I am sure it is Standard Operating procedure for the LEO to take charge of the CPL holders weapon...

OK.!!!..Here is the quote from the MCRGO Lawyer.....Do what you want but I tend to follow his way of thinking.....

There is no standard way being taught to Michigan law enforcement officers on how to deal with CPL holders.

The Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards (MCOLES) has not yet developed uniform training standards for dealing with law-abiding citizens who are carrying during a traffic stop. This is what I recommend to my students.

It's a basic rule of firearm safety that we don't hand a loaded gun to another person. In dealing with a LEO, especially one not used to lawful citizens carrying, you do NOT want to hand him your gun. Having your gun in your hand is a dangerous situation for him, and for you (and especially for other officers arriving as you are handing it over). Allow the officer to remove it from you; it allows him the control he demands, and it is safer for everyone.

In fact, I recommend that if an officer instructs someone to hand the officer a loaded gun, one should offer to let the officer remove it. You don't want to create a scenario during a traffic stop, where the LEO tells you to hand over your pistol. His partner's watching from the passenger side, therefore he can't hear the instruction; the partner sees you pull your gun. The partner is going to stick his gun in your ear and could ruin your whole day.

If the LEO repeats his direction that you hand your pistol to him, first check for the partner or back-up. Then do it, being careful not to (1) put your finger anywhere near the trigger (2) sweep yourself with the barrel, or (3) sweep LEO with the barrel. It is nearly impossible in a car to accomplish all three.

Take off you entire holster if possible and hand over the package. Perhaps set the pistol down somewhere and step away from it.

I would recommend saying "Officer, I'm uncomfortable handing you a loaded pistol, but I have no problem if you wish to remove it from me yourself." It may be impossible to disarm while sitting in car without sweeping someone with the muzzle.

If the LEO wants to disarm you during the traffic stop, let him. I wouldn't expect the LEO to reload your gun after the stop. I would expect he would hand it back unloaded.

[fish hound]

But... it sounds like they didn't have you turn around with your hands over your head and then remove the gun from behind with no warning from your actual person. That is pretty unnerving sounding to me. Seems it could have been handled much better.

It wasn't on my person.  We were told to stay away from the glove box. No need to spread eagle me to disarm me at that time. I'm just curious what the law is about allowing them to board.  Is a no to "do you mind me coming aboard?" An automatic consent to search? 

[djkimmel]

But... it sounds like they didn't have you turn around with your hands over your head and then remove the gun from behind with no warning from your actual person. That is pretty unnerving sounding to me. Seems it could have been handled much better.

It wasn't on my person.  We were told to stay away from the glove box. No need to spread eagle me to disarm me at that time. I'm just curious what the law is about allowing them to board.  Is a no to "do you mind me coming aboard?" An automatic consent to search? 

There was a fair amount of recent discussion on that topic on lakestclair.net. At some point someone posted that he is a coast guard member and said they can board you at anytime based on the different rules on the water. There was a lot more to it than that but A) I have no idea if the person really is a coast guard member, and B) I'm having enough fun in other matters with various government agencies so I didn't do my usual due diligence to confirm what the person wrote is accurate.

I don't doubt their regulations are different than other LE officers on land. I know Conservation Officers do have more freedom and authority in similar areas than other regular LE officers. I just don't know details. I wouldn't start quoting until I had a chance to look them up, or call and confirm with a spokesperson.

I don't plan on doing that anytime soon on this issue. Someone else could look into this if they like. Things do change, and often we share information back and forth for years that turns out to not be accurate.

I'm still trying to figure out what the coast guard was doing on Belleville Lake?? I could have sworn I was told by someone who would know that they only have authority up to the end of navigable channels off the Great Lakes...?

[djkimmel]

I was going to say Waterfoul knew about the change for inflatables. He's the one that told me about it.

Yeah, I wasn't real happy about being disarmed in the manner I was. I was thinking to myself "What did I do wrong? I was told by the Police officer at my cpl class that I could carry on my boat,  but these guys are acting like I'm being taken in to custody".  There were a  outlet of smaller fishing boats nearby, and they sat and watched the whole show. It was embarrassing. I know one thing, I will never carry on LSC.  Not having seen the Boarder Patrol out there too. You would think that after I showed my license they would have figured I was good to go. I went through the class, was able to pass the gun board's criteria to carry a concealed weapon, so why mess with me like that?

If you get stopped in an Auto or boat and the cops are going to do more than just say "Hi" chances are they are going to want you to disarm....It's for your safety and theirs....They could find something that may cause an escalation or things could get testy and it's always better to have everything out in the open right from the start........literally.....
The way they went about disarming you is the safest for everyone involved......Think about the kid in the drivers seat of a car that is getting pulled over and is nervous so struggles dropping his magazine and clearing the chamber....Could be ugly...To he honest I would just as soon have the officer disarm me with my hands on my head that way there is no misinterpretation of the events and I catch a bullet from some rookie......Having the LEO clear the weapon is pretty much what I have heard at all the NRA classes that I have sat in on....

I will be training in June with Border patrol and Local LEOs....I will ask for more clarification at that event....but I am sure it is Standard Operating procedure for the LEO to take charge of the CPL holders weapon...

OK.!!!..Here is the quote from the MCRGO Lawyer.....Do what you want but I tend to follow his way of thinking.....

There is no standard way being taught to Michigan law enforcement officers on how to deal with CPL holders.

The Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards (MCOLES) has not yet developed uniform training standards for dealing with law-abiding citizens who are carrying during a traffic stop. This is what I recommend to my students.

It's a basic rule of firearm safety that we don't hand a loaded gun to another person. In dealing with a LEO, especially one not used to lawful citizens carrying, you do NOT want to hand him your gun. Having your gun in your hand is a dangerous situation for him, and for you (and especially for other officers arriving as you are handing it over). Allow the officer to remove it from you; it allows him the control he demands, and it is safer for everyone.

In fact, I recommend that if an officer instructs someone to hand the officer a loaded gun, one should offer to let the officer remove it. You don't want to create a scenario during a traffic stop, where the LEO tells you to hand over your pistol. His partner's watching from the passenger side, therefore he can't hear the instruction; the partner sees you pull your gun. The partner is going to stick his gun in your ear and could ruin your whole day.

If the LEO repeats his direction that you hand your pistol to him, first check for the partner or back-up. Then do it, being careful not to (1) put your finger anywhere near the trigger (2) sweep yourself with the barrel, or (3) sweep LEO with the barrel. It is nearly impossible in a car to accomplish all three.

Take off you entire holster if possible and hand over the package. Perhaps set the pistol down somewhere and step away from it.

I would recommend saying "Officer, I'm uncomfortable handing you a loaded pistol, but I have no problem if you wish to remove it from me yourself." It may be impossible to disarm while sitting in car without sweeping someone with the muzzle.

If the LEO wants to disarm you during the traffic stop, let him. I wouldn't expect the LEO to reload your gun after the stop. I would expect he would hand it back unloaded.

Why am I not surprised that there aren't standards... In a significant area such as this there should be standards. The lack of standards, adding to more people buying guns and carrying pretty much guarantees we will continue to see more news about people being shot in circumstances they shouldn't have.

I decided a long time ago I would try to make the world a slightly better place through work in the outdoors/fishing arena but gun safety is an area if I had more time and resources that I could take up as another goal. I hope someone else is working on that because 1 needlessly lost life is 1 too many.

It is an interesting topic for discussion, and sometimes just discussing these types of things on public forums can have some impact down the road. I appreciate people piping in with their opinions, thoughts and information.

I remember seeing a really interesting video on how to handle your gun in public restrooms. Being a 'non-carrier' I hadn't really thought of that but after watching the video and seeing the examples of what went wrong in the news from embarrassing to much worse I was impressed with the effort and thought it was one that could be taken up as a standard in gun safety training for people who carry. I'll have to track that link down to keep handy for later websites.

For the situation of having your boat boarded if you carry a gun, I like the idea of making sure they're aware immediately and if it's in a glove box, don't go near it. If they want to remove it, and tell you that is what they want to do first, then I could live with that. If I have it on my person I like the idea of the removable holster and need to think about the difference in handing it to them verses having them take it from me.

I don't see the necessity in having my hands over my head, or being told to turn my back to them. I have no idea what is going to happen, and can't see. That seems even less safe that other alternatives. Who wants to sneak up on an armed person and try to take their gun? An idiot maybe...? That's about all I can picture being very frank, law officer or not. You don't sneak up on people and grab there gun from behind.

If I'm told exactly what they want to do and it is not ridiculous there are better ways to handle it that to me are much safer because none of us will be on the same edge we could easily be with the way Mike was 'disarmed.' That frankly does not sound professional to me. Someone does that to me and the odds go way up that I jump or make some other sudden movement that increases the risk someone else also overreacts. I don't like people coming up behind me and doing things I don't expect. Not one bit.

The first two things I thought of after reading Mike S.'s experience where - either they need more and better training, or they just flew into the Great Lakes from South Florida... I already shared the next thing I thought which is I'm glad I don't carry. I really have had more than enough fun with law enforcement over the years. Adding a gun to the equation would be like storing a bucket of gasoline next to the campfire... inside the camper... Asking for it!

[Mike S.]

I haven't taken the gun back on the water with me. I have thought about contacting the Coast Guard and telling them what happened.  Not to complain or play victim, but in hopes that they could come up with a better way of handling that particular situation. Like I said, I understand why he did it, but it was one of the most on edge moments of my life. I also understand that being a cpl holder changes a lot of things for me in situations like that one. I give up a lot of rights in order to exercise that right. I figured this post may be helpful for others that carry so that they are prepared for this if ever they are faced with it on the water.

[Mcfish]

I'm a little late to this thread (planting corn all week) but I feel the need to comment. 

The whole "hands on your head and widen your stance while I move your shirt and take your weapon" is way over the top and I'm a little stunned by it.

I too carry sometimes when I fish (it is Muskegon) and I cannot imagine having to go through that ordeal.   

Props to Mike for not flying off the handle.  I hope I would be as cordial. 

[Genie]

I don't have a cpl so I don't know.  Do you have to notify an officer you are carrying?

[Mike S.]

YES!!  You have to tell any officer that you have a cpl whether you are armed or not. It's a $100 fine for the first offense of not telling them, and then the fine goes up ultimately leading to the loss of your cpl.  It doesn't matter if you are a passenger in a car or boat. You have to tell any enforcement officers that you have the license and whether or not you are carrying. It's the law.

[djkimmel]

It would definitely be the first thing or darn near close to the first thing I would say if I had a CPL.

Even though I don't, whenever I'm pulled over on the road I always keep both hands on the top of the steering wheel while I wait to see what I was pulled over for this time...

I guess I should add that to whenever I'm stopped on the water from now on too? Though sometimes I have a fishing rod in my hand. I guess just make sure they can always see both hands out in the open.

[motocross269]

The officer is going to do what he feels will give him the Tactical advantage to ensure he goes home safely to his family...I probably have  a different view of this because of my life experiences but I am not going to take a bullet because someone's feelings may get hurt....I don't know you from John Doe...

How do you think the Officer should take control of a loaded weapon.?..Allow you to handle the weapon while you unload it.?..Never going to happen....Common sense safety practices are never hand a loaded weapon to another person.... I'm curious for you guys that think that things were handled wrong if you had the power how would you have the SOP read?....

Here is a video put out by Massad Ayoob on dealing with a traffic stop....IF you are a CPL carrier I probably don't have to tell you who he is...

Training shouldn't stop with your CPL class....8 hours isn't going to give you the tools that you need to guarantee you don't end up in jail doing what you believe is well within your rights...I don't know how many thousands of rounds I have sent downrange in the Military but that has far from prepared me for dealing with the ins and outs of deploying a weapon in a situation that chances are I am going to have to sit in a court of law or the very least a prosecuters office and justify my actions....I read a lot and try to get some type of training every week....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVReVYMLH7E&feature=kp

Reverend Tom is well versed in this I am sure...Maybe he will stop by and give his two cents worth....I will hit him up on facebook...

[Mcfish]

The officer is going to do what he feels will give him the Tactical advantage to ensure he goes home safely to his family...I probably have  a different view of this because of my life experiences but I am not going to take a bullet because someone's feelings may get hurt....I don't know you from John Doe...

My feelings hurt?  Treating a citizen you encounter on a random boat inspection like he is Thuggy G is a lot more than hurting feelings.  It smacks of martial law.

How do you think the Officer should take control of a loaded weapon.?..Allow you to handle the weapon while you unload it.?..Never going to happen....Common sense safety practices are never hand a loaded weapon to another person.... I'm curious for you guys that think that things were handled wrong if you had the power how would you have the SOP read?....

I think the Officer should have told Mike that he had to disarm him.  Then he should have asked Mike to please keep his hands to the opposite side of his body.  Then the Officer could take the weapon.  There, wasn't that easy?  Hands on head, spread eagle and lean forward like I am already a perp?  BULL  Heck, why not go ahead and frisk me while they're at it.  It's already 90% done anyway.  

Is the Coastie disarming him because of risk of accidental discharge, or because he's worried that this random boat owner may suddenly go for his weapon and try to kill six Coast Guard members?  If the worry is that the random boat owner may suddenly go Jihad, is there a precedent for it?  A history of Michigan boat owners snapping and shooting LEO's performing random boat inspections?

Training shouldn't stop with your CPL class....8 hours isn't going to give you the tools that you need to guarantee you don't end up in jail doing what you believe is well within your rights...I don't know how many thousands of rounds I have sent downrange in the Military but that has far from prepared me for dealing with the ins and outs of deploying a weapon in a situation that chances are I am going to have to sit in a court of law or the very least a prosecuters office and justify my actions....I read a lot and try to get some type of training every week....I don't get training every week.  I have a family and work that takes up a significant amount of my time.  I am proficient with my weapon and have been trained on the whens and wheres.

I am as pro cop as anybody.  I have an in-laws who are cops, friends who are cops, and one of my best fishing buddies is a retired cop.  I have heard countless stories of the garbage they deal with.  But I can honestly say that not one of the guys I know would have handled that situation the same.  Treating citizens with respect is not too much to ask.