FLW vs. B.A.S.S. - Decision time

[djkimmel]

This is the latest offer summary from the TBF with FLW and BassFan (also Adobe pdf document): TBF Divisional and Conservation Flow Chart

Additionally, TBF announced the hiring today of an experienced national membership programs administrator (another Adobe pdf document):

THE BASS FEDERATION, INC. ?STAFFING UP?
HIRES FEDERATION MEMBERSHIP PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATOR
PONCA CITY, OK. (Feb. 1, 2006) ? The Bass Federation Inc. announced today that it has hired Ruth Bozeman to the position of Federation Membership Programs Administrator.

Ruth M. Bozeman, of Montgomery, Alabama, graduated from Troy University with a Bachelors degree in Business Management and Information Systems. She worked at BASS, LLC. for 3 years in the Federation Department. While with BASS, some of the things Ruth was responsible for include: Coordinating and maintaining relationships with State Federation Presidents and Representatives and Federation Sponsors, planning the Federation Divisionals and National Championship, and the Federation Outstanding Achievement Awards Program. Complete News Release...

[djkimmel]

Expect new similar announcements from FLW in the coming week or so. I have additional documents and letters to share with you, but I think they are best handled by first allowing our federation board to discuss them Sunday morning, and then giving the information to our presidents at the afternoon meeting once the board has had their chance to consider them.

Nothing will be held back, I just think politically, they should dsicuss them first, and then the presidents should have them before release to all members.

I promise that everything I have received or been told that is confirmably accurate will be shared at the president's meeting and then for those of you who can't make it, I will post it here after the meeting. No big secrets just trying to keep this productive and as smooth as something major like this can be.

I don't think a lot of pre-meeting discussion may be interpreted properly by people who are reading this.

[Savage]

Dan, you should run for office somewhere you politically savy dude, you.  How about Governor?  Then you can open the bass season year 'round and outlaw jetskis during fishing hours (24 hrs a day )

[ronhuntfish]

Judging by the Mich. Fed web site, I get the impression that they, or at least the Pres, is leaning to TBF/FLW.  That's just me trying to read between the lines, which probably is not  agood thing to do.  I guess we'll see.

[Savage]

If we stayed with B.A.S.S. and some clubs went with FLW, I guess that just means less boats at the state fish off.  Hmmmmm....

[djkimmel]

I feel a little guilty not posting more on the federation forum, but you guys and gals are keeping me busy here (THANKS!) and there's still not a lot of traffic over there.

Like I say, there are additional communications and occurences that have gone on that will probably be covered by the board at the meeting tomorrow. That may be why the postings on the Michigan federation main page seem a little biased.

Also, as we all know, it is easy to 'sound' one way or another on forums and web sites when all you have is words. There is so much that could be posted to the point it is almost overwhelming. And things are still changing. I've been seeking advice myself from people I trust while trying to ignore unproductive email and other commucations that are possibly made in the heat of the moment.

I did find out that there are some problems over on the federation web site with the board email addresses and the web host. The federation webmaster is working to fix that. Some of the addresses were not working.

(Savage - I can't be a real politician - I'm a bad liar but... that doesn't mean I won't work on your ideas - I LIKE them!)

[blakstr1]

well, i've held my tongue for a long time on this issue although i think about it and talk to my wife about it daily.? i have honestly been very conflicted about the whole situation for quite some time and actually i will be until the voting process.? for now call this my 2 cents, but basically i'm trying to pick points out of the proposals that go head to head, apples for apples.? It is important to me that i say i still haven't made a decision as to where my loyalty lies, but this is in a response to someone that asked what did i see that was good for us everyday average anglers about the FLW proposal.? so for now, here goes...

Under a TBF affiliated state:
(FLW)
15 person state team (12 anglers, 1 Alternate, President, Conservation Director)
6 Divisional Championships (2 from each state; 1 boater, 1 co-angler)
Federation National Championship (54 boaters, 54 co-anglers : 6 boaters and 6 co?s advance to BFL All-American)
1 Federation national champion boater and 1 national champion co-angler
Federation Nation Living the Dream Program
Advance to the Forrest Wood Cup
BFL All-American (1 winner not necessarily Federation member)
Forrest Wood Cup
(BassFan)
Designates a State Champion / Mr. Bass, provides publicity
Divisional State Champions Tournaments (12 proceed: 6 boaters, 6 co-anglers) 2 from each division
BassFans Weekend Warrior Championship (no entry fee)

This amounts to 182 New Championship Tournament slots past the state level for Federation members. This also includes a new Regional Conservation Program.

Under a BASS affiliated state:
(State Championship)
State Championship for each state federation (12 person team plus 1 alternate, and president)
Divisionals winning state team earns prizes and top angler from each team earns a slot in the Federation Championship
46 federation anglers & 6 foreign country anglers compete for 6 spots in the classic, 1 person from each region.
Bassmaster Classic

(NEW Bass Club Championship)
(6) man teams compete at state level
Each state sends 6 (6) man teams to regional
10 different regions hold qualifying tournaments
Top 6 clubs from each regional advance to Championship

This offers quite a bit new competition too..

When you look at these scenarios both have their strong points. Remember this all started when BASS wanted to make a $5 increase, which isn?t nothing but gives them an extra $200,000 annually in dues with no distribution plan for that money. My concern is based on that is that why they won?t commit to a multi year deal? Maybe its paranoia on my part but something doesn?t feel right? I?ve got issues both ways though. I?m just caught up with the fact right now that many guys are siding with BASS because its what they?re use too but what they?re used to is gone. Now should we side with the better business and strictly business wise IMO the better of the two is FLW, because ALL of their money is made by bass fishing or a bass fishing affiliate, their bread and butter?bass fishing is way down the list for money makers for ESPN, just turn on the TV.? In my mind FLW is anglers working for anglers.? Now that FLW is going to have the full liability package, progressive conservation progam, and a youth program in place it smoothes a few more wrinkles in my mind. Yes FLW did say they can only guarantee the full package if they get the 80% participation but that makes business sense, not ideal I know but I see their side..not sure if the plan is out there for the pro-rations of less participation, say 68% sign up gets this??? That would be nice to see.

Just picture the state if we do have 2 affiliations with clubs running around from each, you may have just doubled the amount of tournaments out there each year, more weekends used up..granted the amount of people might not have changed but it will still take up more room.? I'm also concerned with what this will do to memberships at the club level, will anglers that don't approve of their clubs vote, leave for another, all stuff I've been considering through this whole thing.? ?

I am just worried about our power as a national organization if we only represent 20% of the bass fishing nation (meaning if we stay with BASS and FLW does get the 80% participation) our voice just got hoarse. That would turn 40K into 8000 members or so, better chance to get to the classic but I?m afraid that whole process will back pedal due to lack of membership..if they were trying to increase dues by 200k what will they do when roughly 1.5million suddenly leaves?? OUCH!!

Ultimately I?m with you guys I just want to go fishing, however I want to have all the opportunities I can get to advance..?

[Savage]

I agree, why is everyone trying to tip-toe around this issue? ? Anyway, I see all of this as a good thing.? TBF/FLW entering the picture has brought about some competition, and now B.A.S.S. had to step up a bit.? The way I see it, if I fish with FLW I can make the state team, which is one of 12 spots.....

If I fish with BASS I can make the 12 man team, or I can make it on one of the new club championship teams, 6 teams of 6 for a total of 36.? This means we are sending 12 + 36 = 48 guys to the "next level"? I like the odds on that much better.

Realistically, I doubt that FLW is getting the %80 they crave, so the deal will change.? The benefits offered by BASS are on the table without stipulations.? BASS is also a known entity for me, so there is a comfort level.

FLW is asking too much....? making demands about putting their logo on everything that is printed, telling us what sponsors we have to have, and pushing for a 5 year deal (why would anyone want to try something new and lock it in for 5 years???)

I am sticking with BASS.

[blakstr1]

Would someone with a better memory than mine please answer a question for me   Is it true that BASS set up there weekend series tournaments in Michigan without contacting the MBF to schedule it in conjunction with the Classic Series?

I heard this but need validity on the topic, wouldn't expect a situation like that if they were really concerned with the Federation. 

[ronhuntfish]

Some of the options are looking better from TBF, but I am still uneasy about it.  I am still concerned about how their proposal could be effected by the number of members they get.

I am tending to think that I would prefer to stay with BASS at least for 2006. If it turns out that it was the wrong move for our club, then we always have the option of switching to TBF in 2007.

I was at the federation meeting meeting Sun. I think the board did a fair (as fair as possible) job of stating the facts, although it seemed that the fact that Ranger is a big Mich. Fed sponsor has swayed them to TBF.
I did not like the answer to the question of what happens to the Michigan Federation Dues that my club has already paid if my club choices the opposite of the MI Fed. He basically couldn't answer it, and then said you probably wouldn't get it back?  I know BASS said they would refund the national dues that clubs paid.

This really hoses up the State Championship.  The 12 man team from the 2005 St. Clair tournament now are not sure where or when they will be fishing in the divisional, or if they will at all.  The 2006 State Championship is still on, but we have no idea where that team will fish.  What if someone on the state team is in a club that goes the opposite of the federation, can he still fish in the divisional? Maybre the questions will be answered soon.

I also had a thought, not sure if this is valid or technically correct.  Shouldn't the Michigan Federation automatically convert to BASS Federation Nation?  It was started as a BASS affiliated group. That is what all its members have paid and bought into.  It seems that if members want to go TBF than they should leave this Federation to form a different one, not split it.  Or, is it the opposite way, since the MI Fed is represented by TBF?? Or maybe neither way is correct?

I guess these are some of the conflicts going on inside my brain.

Is it possible for a club to be members of BASS without being affiliated with a state federation? The way I understand it, BASS wont deal with idividual clubs, only at a state level.

I think the bottom line is that, in the end, we will have two groups.  It may be better since it creates competion and prevents monopolization by one group.  It could negativily effect sponsoship, since a sponsor may not like representing a small number of people.

Ouch!! I think I just had a brain fart!

[djkimmel]

Would someone with a better memory than mine please answer a question for me Is it true that BASS set up there weekend series tournaments in Michigan without contacting the MBF to schedule it in conjunction with the Classic Series?

In the past, BASS has not kept it very secret that they are not fond of states having their own tournament series such as the Classic Series. Different reasons for this, but in general, they feel they are problematic.

To my knowledge, the board hadn't heard much directly about this in a while. The new Woverine Bassmaster Series director did contact the federation to check on our dates and try to not schedule on top of one of our events. There was no discussion from BASS to combine the two series together. I think the Michigan board may have asked about that previously, but it was not an option.

[djkimmel]

I agree, why is everyone trying to tip-toe around this issue? ? Anyway, I see all of this as a good thing.? TBF/FLW entering the picture has brought about some competition, and now B.A.S.S. had to step up a bit.? The way I see it, if I fish with FLW I can make the state team, which is one of 12 spots.....

It is nice to start to see we have real value and are desired by major companies. The board (and myself even though I'm not on the board) is trying to give the members all the available informatin that is accurate without trying to seem like they are misrepresenting anything or withholding any information BASS or TBF wants members to see.

We all have our personal opinions - some no stronger than many of you and some pretty strong - BUT (a big BUT) the members and presidents make the ultimate decision. Every board member besides the state president who is the tie-breaker does have a vote too, but the club presidents will make the real decision.

Nationally, there have been many confusing and unproductive accusations of lying and misleading - particulary against state presidents and/or state officers. Doug and the board (and I) are trying to avoid that here as much as possible.

Why? Maybe just because the more civil this process is, the more likely we all reach a wise decision without hating each other and without tearing the federation apart too much. This whole thing has been frustrating for me personally to see fairly strong, longstanding organizations hamstringed or worse when it seems like a lot of this could have been avoided. I just want the Michigan federation to come out of this with the least amount of damage.

If I fish with BASS I can make the 12 man team, or I can make it on one of the new club championship teams, 6 teams of 6 for a total of 36.? This means we are sending 12 + 36 = 48 guys to the "next level"? I like the odds on that much better.

Make sure you understand that each 6-person team in the new club championship have to be made up of members from the same club. Some are concerned this could cause larger clubs to break up into more smaller clubs. Hard to say until it is seen how popular the event is.

[djkimmel]

Some of the options are looking better from TBF, but I am still uneasy about it. I am still concerned about how their proposal could be effected by the number of members they get.

I'm looking into this to see what can be clarified.

I am tending to think that I would prefer to stay with BASS at least for 2006. If it turns out that it was the wrong move for our club, then we always have the option of switching to TBF in 2007.

Your club may have the option. BASS has said clubs can affiliate with both. BASS will not allow state officers to affiliate with more than one organization. TBF's deal with FLW says TBF will start a TBF federation in each state where there isn't one. So if the Michigan federation votes to stay with BASS, by next year there will be a TBF federation too.  The clubs could join this other federation, but the board could not since there would already be another board.

I was at the federation meeting meeting Sun. I think the board did a fair (as fair as possible) job of stating the facts, although it seemed that the fact that Ranger is a big Mich. Fed sponsor has swayed them to TBF.

Understand that the board takes our existing and very good contracts seriously. It is not only Ranger, but also Yamaha and other sponsors too. If we stay with BASS, a number of our really good contracts become questionable with not much to replace them. We already know the deals from the other side - they are limited because of the way they are structured; they favor the national level, not the state level - and they do not compare to our existing contracts. This is a major concern that should not be taken lightly. We have heard from a number of our sponsors on this issue as I have too.

No threats, just discussions on how things might have to change either way we go. For Ranger alone, we get a free boat and a boat at about cost. This is one of the best state contracts in the nation. With BASS, we may not keep this level of support and there is no such program available to the states from their side. With TBF, we can keep our existing contract PLUS get in on the additional national benefits TBF and FLW provide including bonus money back to our federation for every Ranger sold. Yamaha has just signed a larger deal with FLW Outdoors and will be a major player in our future too. We can't afford to overlook that and not stress to members how valuable these deals are. This decision has major cost considerations to the Michigan federation.

I did not like the answer to the question of what happens to the Michigan Federation Dues that my club has already paid if my club choices the opposite of the MI Fed. He basically couldn't answer it, and then said you probably wouldn't get it back? I know BASS said they would refund the national dues that clubs paid.

This is all new and challenging. No decision has been made on this issue. I heard as many board members say we should give the dues back as I heard say we should not. Again, the club presidents make the decision on whether we stay or go as a federation. I think by the time the decision is made, the board will have thoroughly talked over club dues and made the best decision they can on this question.

This really hoses up the State Championship. The 12 man team from the 2005 St. Clair tournament now are not sure where or when they will be fishing in the divisional, or if they will at all. The 2006 State Championship is still on, but we have no idea where that team will fish. What if someone on the state team is in a club that goes the opposite of the federation, can he still fish in the divisional? Maybre the questions will be answered soon.

Most likely, to participate in one companies event or the other, you'll have to be a member in good standing in that company.

I also had a thought, not sure if this is valid or technically correct. Shouldn't the Michigan Federation automatically convert to BASS Federation Nation? It was started as a BASS affiliated group. That is what all its members have paid and bought into. It seems that if members want to go TBF than they should leave this Federation to form a different one, not split it. Or, is it the opposite way, since the MI Fed is represented by TBF?? Or maybe neither way is correct?

The BASS Federation Nation is a new agreement with new requirements, rule, codes of conduct and even patches and logos - some of which we have not seen yet. We have to go by our bylaws - we are an incorporated company ourselves. Either BASS Fed Nation or TBF. To go or stay is up to the federation presidents/reps present at the bylaw vote - done as mandated in the bylaws. Michigan federation has been a member affiliate of both BASS and TBF.

Is it possible for a club to be members of BASS without being affiliated with a state federation? The way I understand it, BASS wont deal with idividual clubs, only at a state level.

As far as I know, BASS still requires clubs to be a member of the state affiliate. It appears TBF will be the same way. BASS has made it clear they will help members/clubs start a new state federation if necessary. TBF is obligated to start TBF federations in any state that doesn't already have one.

Ouch!! I think I just had a brain fart!

I know the feeling...

[Savage]

Looks like we are getting a ton of good info on this, I hope we don't wear out the topic before it comes time to vote!

[joshimoto son]

Do you remeber in one of the REAL Star Wars movies when Luke Skywalker was blind folded and had to defend off the little lazer beams being shot at him by that little round thing flying around?

I just witnessed Lt. Dan doing the same thing with this last post of his.

The force is strong that one is... yes

Well done young Jedi!!!

[Savage]

Luke gets his arm cut off later in that one, right?

[djkimmel]

Yeah - I believe that is true... could account for some of the toe-tapping, you think?

I'm hearing from a lot of people and I'd like to stay friendly with as many of them as possible when the smoke clears.

I only have one vote for my club and my club has not fully weighed in yet.

I can see we will be 'buried' in information before this is over. I think about that (because I've been accused of this more than once ) every time I think about responding to something.

No one here should feel uncomfortable stating their opinion and don't take any of my responses personal either please. Just trying to be fair to all the readers and members - you might be surprised who is reading this stuff. I have been a few times.

All questions are particularly important since I hope people make informed decisions about this important issue. Not everyone is up to speed yet on this issue as we were reminded at the federation meeting. I assume a question means at least one person wants to know - and probably others too. Thanks for your patience and participation.

I just saw yesterday that there is a popular Wisconsin Bass Federation web site in Wisconsin that is completely TBF now. That was quick. I do not know for sure if this is the original site or a totally new one. Like Ohio, where there are two web sites now with one being a new BASS Federation Nation web site and the other being the original Ohio BASS Chapter Federation.

[djkimmel]

I figure we are talking about the issue enough here - I've stayed off the forums in other states - I don't want overload anymore than anyone else...

[Savage]

What I really don't want is for this to turn into the civli war of bass fishing.   If things were right, I would be in both organizations.  More opportunity is good, any way you slice it.  Just because I am choosing to go with BASS for the time being, doesn't mean if someone goes to the TBF plan I would even care.  Fishermen are pretty cool people for the most part, and we are reluctant to get into politics.  That's why it's so surpirsing to me that this is such an eotional issue!

I'm cool with everyone, BASS, TBF, FLW, BFE, XYZPDQ, and even WWE   

[blakstr1]

the fear of Civil War is exactly my fear, like I said on another post, if you split the Federation you're going to end up with the Republicans VS the Democrats...when all I really want to do is fish.....