How to win friends and influence people

[djkimmel]

It's really nuts when you consider that you can HARVEST pike and walleye ALL YEAR on Lake St. Clair and they are harvest fish - fish that people generally keep more than release - yet bass are numerous in the lake, at a 93% voluntary live release rate and the most restricted gamefish on the lake because of what anglers think not because of the real science available. That is what the last bass study on Lake St. Clair by the MDNR reported.

Sure, plenty of anglers don't care one way or the other, plenty are just in the 'fear of change' category and then there are our enemies who don't want us, for various reasons, to have more opportunity often just because they want the fishing as easy as possible for themselves. We do have support from the organized walleye anglers - they want more bass caught and kept, which of course won't be much of a change considering the 93% voluntary live release rate. But they would rather have us out there catching more bass more often.

[Jay-MadWags]

I agree with thedude. Tournaments in the inland lakes of Michigan have always been during the spawn. From what I can see, no harm has been done. I live around The Detroit River. And every spring (sometimes as early as March) the walleye get hammered. It is commonplace to see at least 100 to even 200 boats at multiple areas of the river throughout a days trip. You can walk across them LOL. Most boats have at least 4 anglers fishing for and keeping walleye. I know they are fishing during the spawn. I have seen multiple walleye taken over 10 pounds and go straight in the livewell. I personally don't keep any walleye even close to that size during this time of the year and spawn for that matter. It really makes me sick to see this because I know those are the fish that make the Detroit River a world class walleye fishery. Now I'm not sure if the MIDNR stocks the river on a regular basis with walleye. But what I'm getting at is that there doesn't seem to be any concern for the conservation of the walleye at this critical time during their spawn.
I apologize if this has already been discussed. This topic struck a cord with me. Seems hypocritical and bias against a certain group of fish or anglers for that matter.

[thedude]

The difference is that people want to eat those fish, so the DNR sits out in the mouth of the river with shock rigs to collect eggs so that they can restock what anglers take. A good example of the hypocracy in the NRCs inaction. We are free to over harvest walleye and the DNR will artificially replenish them but bass we have to over protect for pretend reasons.

[DeanV]

Thanks Jay, thedude, and spinnerbation for your input.

Remember when comparing fishing for bass vs walleye or pike during the spawn is that walleye and pike have no parental care.  That makes a big difference in the impact angling can have on a population.  There are still selective pressures that could come into play with a lot of harvest, but we do not have to deal with the nest site abandonment issues of bass and the artificial selection pressures anglers can cause in those situations.

Personally, I think we can all agree we would rather catch bass that are not stocked than rely on stocked fish.  Makes me think about how trout guys seem to much prefer catching wild trout than stocked ones.  I am not a trout guy, so maybe I am wrong there but the trout guys I know much prefer wild ones.  If we need to resort to stocking bass, something went really wrong somewhere.

I do realize that in a lot of MI the spawn is not protected much, especially in northern MI.  I trust what you guys say for timing of the spawn in  MI.  When I did research, the opener fell right in the middle of the spawning season in the lake near Cadillac where we worked.  It was a small lake, but deep and with relatively little shallow water to help speed up the warming.  I do think it would be wise to protect bass with at least immediate release through the spawn period though even if that means delaying the opener.  Also, remember that the earlier spawners are the most important ones to protect since their offspring have a great chance of surviving through the first winter. So, even if the opener protects the earlier portion of the spawn that is significant.

I personally believe that serious bass anglers including most of the active members here are more effective and efficient anglers than those of previous generations.  There is so much more knowledge available to anglers, better technology, better understanding of how to catch bass that the impact of angling can be more significant than before.

If there was one thing I wish I could accomplish here is that you guys would stop viewing this as a one-sided case of science vs. non-science.  There are good studies on both sides of this issue.  Because of my focus on behavior of spawning bass, I tend to think through the effects of angling from that perspective.  I look at the impact of nest abandonment which guarantees no offspring for that nest, that northern bass do not re spawn if a nest fails, the selective issues that could cause in a population, the very few numbers of smallmouth that actually contribute to a year class in a given lake, etc as enough reason for sound scientific concern.

I realize you would all like to see a very direct link between angling pressure and decreases in the population before you would concede any negative affect of angling.  Things like this are not always that clear cut and black and white because of how many variables can come into play.  We may never agree if angling is enough of a variable to be worth considering.

Hear is one more article, not a journal article but a reprint from In-fisherman from Matt Straw and Gord  Pyzer (who is a retired fisheries guy): http://www.wisconsinsmallmouth.com/Newsletters/0805.pdf

Thank you for those of you that were willing to discuss things in a reasonable and civil tone.  I hope i did not come across as arrogant or condescending in anyway.  If I did, I apologize.  It was not my intention.

[thedude]

I did get into the weeds - which distracts from my point.

The NRCs sole purpose of existence is to be the judge and jury on scientific based management. As you've mentioned there's studies on both sides of the issue that can be interpreted as either for or against extending the seasons.

What we've seen is a total lack of formal process. No defensible data is submitted to the public as the basis for the outcome, therefore that decision (or lack thereof) is inherently baseless - in that it renders us (the people) powerless to challenge it. It's akin to your parents saying "Because I said so" when you wanted ice cream or something. It doesn't matter how factual or logical your argument is at that point since you will just be overruled.

The beautiful thing about science is that it is optimistic, in that negative results are still a success. Thusly, when faced with an issue, a scientist is eager and excited to deduct a conclusion because it is always a win. We are not seeing that from our NRC - when presented with conflicting data, there has been no attempt to clarify or challenge old standards through scientific process.  Continually challenging old standards is the only path to progress.  It's the reason we have lightbulbs instead of candles and unleaded gasoline and heart transplants and solar power and .... you get it i'm sure.

Maybe spawn fishing is keeping us from reaching our true potential of a quality fishery, maybe we can catch and keep all year without any penalty. While i personally believe the latter, i certainly feel that there is ample cause to assert that our current regulations address neither side of this issue and that if progress is to be made for the betterment of our resources - the NRC has to actually do something scientific, not just stick their fingers in their ears and yell "la la la la la la la i don't want to hear anymore la la la" like a bunch of politicians.

The NRC has a job and charter which was granted them by popular vote of the people of this state. They are ignoring the sole reason they even were allowed to exist. Basically, we have just been duped into letting the DNR choose which politics they wish to play.

[AMSDJS]

I agree with thedude. Tournaments in the inland lakes of Michigan have always been during the spawn. From what I can see, no harm has been done. I live around The Detroit River. And every spring (sometimes as early as March) the walleye get hammered. It is commonplace to see at least 100 to even 200 boats at multiple areas of the river throughout a days trip. You can walk across them LOL. Most boats have at least 4 anglers fishing for and keeping walleye. I know they are fishing during the spawn. I have seen multiple walleye taken over 10 pounds and go straight in the livewell. I personally don't keep any walleye even close to that size during this time of the year and spawn for that matter. It really makes me sick to see this because I know those are the fish that make the Detroit River a world class walleye fishery. Now I'm not sure if the MIDNR stocks the river on a regular basis with walleye. But what I'm getting at is that there doesn't seem to be any concern for the conservation of the walleye at this critical time during their spawn.
I apologize if this has already been discussed. This topic struck a cord with me. Seems hypocritical and bias against a certain group of fish or anglers for that matter.

Jay,

Those walleyes that run up the DR in Spring are a small percentage of total eyes that spawn in the Erie-DR-LSC-SCR-Huron system. The majority of lower GL walleyes spawn on the Lake Erie reefs and there's plenty of literature to provide stats. The fish that do run into the rivers to spawn are in a relatively concentrated area, i.e. funnel, that makes them "easy pickins" for newbies with a jig rod. You spread those boats out over the LSC mile roads and I'll bet it pretty close to the same amount of pressure during April and May. Harley, Crocker, Selridge, etc are packed with trailers close to the same as at Erie Metro, Wyandotte, Elizabeth Park during Spring.

The thing that shocks me is you stated it sickens you to see big female walleyes go into live wells (not released). Pretty hypocritical IMO that you think it's OK to toss big female smallies into a livewell and hope that they survive upon release after riding around all day. Sure, eating fish leaves no chance for survival but trust me, there's a lot of big bass that die post-release. More than people who aren't fisheries biologists care to admit (or accept). I guarantee that the tournament guys who run their livewells continuously and use release supplements (any serious bass angler knows what Rejuvenade or Catch and Release are and where to get them) during tournaments is a very small fraction, and I'd bet zero in some small club events. No, I don't have hard numbers but I've asked fishing tackle stores how much Rejuvenade they sell and it's hardly any at all over a year. Heck, some don't even carry any such thing.

I studied limnology and ecology at the University of Illinois-Champaign Urbana in the 80's and attended Humboldt State University for grad school in fisheries under Roger Barnhart. So I do know a thing or two about fisheries biology (and I can tell Dean V knows the subject). I've since worked in scientific research at major universities in CA, WA, and MI and published many peer-reviewed, high impact manuscripts and know full well the struggles of PIs trying to obtain funding for research. I lived through the Reagan years when he had James Watt as his Sec of the Interior and watched him cut all funding to the US Fish and Wildlife such that many fish hatcheries were shuttered during their tenure in the mid-to-late 80s. So I take it kinda personal when I read bass anglers criticize fisheries professionals for their decisions when they have no idea what goes into their education, training, and work. Anyone can find articles on fisheries research and even understand most of them. But I will tell you that all this is is a select group of lobbyists (tournament bass anglers) wanting to change bass regulations to suit their desires. Which is to hold catch and keep bass tournaments as they see fit. As Dean said it is not science vs. non-science, as Dan is respectfully lobbying for as a rationale for this change. Plain and simple, the argument is that since catch and keep bass tournaments presently take place during the spawn in the Northern latitudes of MI, why not have them all year long? They have no detrimental effect, right? Yet this is based on what - angler observation?

I've been fishing for almost 50 years for all types of species, mostly bass, and I would bet a Lions championship that any and all serious anglers (amateur and pro) knows the best and only way to ensure survival is immediate release. No boat flipping. No putting in a livewell with reduced O2 levels. Ask musky guys. Ask trout guys. Ask saltwater guys. Never mind how the effect on recruitment rates and how removing bass from beds affects fry survival cuz that falls on deaf ears. All the studies in the US don't matter since they weren't conducted in MI or on LSC, etc. Doesn't apply, right. There were earlier mentions of evolving as a sport. There's MLF and live GoPro bass tournaments. Those are more fun for me, as a spectator (don't know about as a participant) to watch because I think the decision-making strategy changes completely compared to the typical BASS/5 heaviest fish format where culling is involved. In any case, I think the best way to unite the cause is not to make it a science vs. non-science issue because 1) it's not and 2) it divides anglers into a Dem vs Rep mentality further polarizing anglers.

[djkimmel]

It is science verses non-sense, I mean science... sorry. Okay, not really. There are reasons most states do not protect the spawn at all and allow all types of bass fishing. Biological, scientific reasons. And important economic and fisheries resource management reasons.

Some anglers are protectionist and there PERSONAL philosophy is to protect the spawn. Good for them. But the rest of us shouldn't have to live under their overly and unnecessarily restrictive thinking. The science shows we can bass fish more than we do now and the bass will hold their own.

Even Michigan DNR studies show that bass generally produce and excess of offspring - reason 1 why most states don't restrict their anglers - and that there is no correlation between fishing any time of the year and bass recruitment. There are at least 50 plus years of bass studies in Michigan that don't show anything different than other states have shown.

Fishing is a consumptive sport. Catching a bass is a bad 'outcome' for that individual bass but I'm not going to stop fishing because my license and purchases are the primary thing that also affords the MDNR to ensure they have the regulations in place that maintain our bass populations which is very little because under the present fishing conditions of most anglers releasing most of their bass our bass are doing fine and the creel limit has very little impact because of this CIR mentality.

The size limit may be the only regulation the MDNR EVER made that actually may have made for better bass fishing and this statement comes from an MDNR fisheries researcher who worked on bass studies in Michigan.

Face it. We do some damage but the amount of fishing we have been doing for decades including fishing harvest season in 70% of the state's bass spawn, and with all the modern technology has shown no adverse impact on bass populations from year-to-year and lake-to-lake.

I'm not going to make bass tournament anglers stop or unnecessarily limit their opportunity just because some bass are harmed either. Fishing is consumptive. It is a conservation sport, not a preservation sport. All the bass tournaments over all the decades including 45+ years of holding them during 70% of the state's bass spawn have not shown any harm to Michigan bass populations. I have asked even the most ardent anti-bass tournament leaning MDNR fisheries biologists this question over and over and all they can lean on is 'but what if something happens?' Well, like any other situation we deal with that IF and when it happens but considering it hasn't happened anywhere else because of just fishing what are the odds it happens here?? Not much.

There are no studies showing that allowing more bass tournaments during the rest of the most prolific lower Michigan spawn and prespawn will hurt our bass populations either. The MDNR has said they will not do such a long-term, expensive study either and one of the reasons is because there is plenty of science and real-world evidence already that we can fish the more bass tournaments in the spring without destroying our bass populations. Plenty of other states do it. We've been doing it for 45 years!

The only thing holding us back is angler opinion. Some anglers being more protectionist instead of conservationist in their thinking. That is NOT science. That is opinion and personal preference. And of course some of it just being bias and prejudice against bass tournaments. Some people are only against us fishing more because they don't like us at THEIR boat ramps. That is also NOT science.

It is one of the main reasons I hear people say they don't want more bass tournaments. Bass tournament anglers should have the EXACT same opportunity other anglers have to use the boat ramps. They pay just as much for them as anyone else. Probably more according to some studies about average angler behavior.

I don't care that some people don't like us. Some people dislike just about anything. That is not a reason to deny a group opportunity.

It's great that there is emerging technology and ideas on how to do bass tournaments but there is no science showing we need to adapt en mass to it overnight. It would only be forced on us because of others' personal opinions. preferences and bias not because of any scientifically proven need.

I would much rather have happy anglers out their fishing more often because they can and work on helping them improve their already successful efforts to keep even more bass alive during and after the tournaments than use an unimpactful loss of some bass as a reason to deny them opportunity. If that is the criteria then we should all STOP fishing period because we all kill some bass, harm some bass, impact individual bed success. We are ALL guilty as charged. But we (pretty much only we) also pay for the budget manage the natural resources and everything in them. Without us there is no management at all.

It is grossly unfair - and talk about hypocritical - for one angler to tell another angler you can't fish as much as me because you harm some bass. That is pretty much mostly just human selfishness rearing its ugly head. Also not science. Bass tournament anglers deserve the same opportunity to fish their way as much as anyone else does. They don't deserve less opportunity. There is no science supporting that. Only opinion, personal preference, selfishness and bias. That is science.

[21XDC]

Great post above Dan... The Man! 

[DeanV]

If you have not all read the Phillip, et al 2015 article, you should at least read it.  It should be of great interest to every single bass angler regardless of your view on this topic.  My opinions were based on scientific research years before this article was published to it has not influenced my opinion one way or the other.  It is just a really good read.  This one focuses largemouth bass.  The stuff I have referenced prior focuses on smallmouth bass primarily.

http://fishlab.nres.illinois.edu/Documents/PhilippEtAl_BassBook_2015.pdf

Link to brief talk on subject:

[djkimmel]

Yes, fishing for bass is a bad outcome for that individual bass. And once again no correlation to the bass population though. They've been trying to prove that for over 20 years and failing. That is a result. There is no correlation between fishing for bass ANY time of the year and bass recruitment. This study says this might happen or that might happen yet we've been fishing the majority of the bass spawn in Michigan under the harvest season for over 45 years and NONE of this has happened.

The fishing has actually gotten better during this time despite increased angler knowledge and better tools. The 'blame' is attributed by real bass biologist experts mainly to the catch-and-release ethic practiced by the majority of bass anglers.

[thedude]

I agree with thedude. Tournaments in the inland lakes of Michigan have always been during the spawn. From what I can see, no harm has been done. I live around The Detroit River. And every spring (sometimes as early as March) the walleye get hammered. It is commonplace to see at least 100 to even 200 boats at multiple areas of the river throughout a days trip. You can walk across them LOL. Most boats have at least 4 anglers fishing for and keeping walleye. I know they are fishing during the spawn. I have seen multiple walleye taken over 10 pounds and go straight in the livewell. I personally don't keep any walleye even close to that size during this time of the year and spawn for that matter. It really makes me sick to see this because I know those are the fish that make the Detroit River a world class walleye fishery. Now I'm not sure if the MIDNR stocks the river on a regular basis with walleye. But what I'm getting at is that there doesn't seem to be any concern for the conservation of the walleye at this critical time during their spawn.
I apologize if this has already been discussed. This topic struck a cord with me. Seems hypocritical and bias against a certain group of fish or anglers for that matter.

Jay,

Those walleyes that run up the DR in Spring are a small percentage of total eyes that spawn in the Erie-DR-LSC-SCR-Huron system. The majority of lower GL walleyes spawn on the Lake Erie reefs and there's plenty of literature to provide stats. The fish that do run into the rivers to spawn are in a relatively concentrated area, i.e. funnel, that makes them "easy pickins" for newbies with a jig rod. You spread those boats out over the LSC mile roads and I'll bet it pretty close to the same amount of pressure during April and May. Harley, Crocker, Selridge, etc are packed with trailers close to the same as at Erie Metro, Wyandotte, Elizabeth Park during Spring.

The thing that shocks me is you stated it sickens you to see big female walleyes go into live wells (not released). Pretty hypocritical IMO that you think it's OK to toss big female smallies into a livewell and hope that they survive upon release after riding around all day. Sure, eating fish leaves no chance for survival but trust me, there's a lot of big bass that die post-release. More than people who aren't fisheries biologists care to admit (or accept). I guarantee that the tournament guys who run their livewells continuously and use release supplements (any serious bass angler knows what Rejuvenade or Catch and Release are and where to get them) during tournaments is a very small fraction, and I'd bet zero in some small club events. No, I don't have hard numbers but I've asked fishing tackle stores how much Rejuvenade they sell and it's hardly any at all over a year. Heck, some don't even carry any such thing.

I studied limnology and ecology at the University of Illinois-Champaign Urbana in the 80's and attended Humboldt State University for grad school in fisheries under Roger Barnhart. So I do know a thing or two about fisheries biology (and I can tell Dean V knows the subject). I've since worked in scientific research at major universities in CA, WA, and MI and published many peer-reviewed, high impact manuscripts and know full well the struggles of PIs trying to obtain funding for research. I lived through the Reagan years when he had James Watt as his Sec of the Interior and watched him cut all funding to the US Fish and Wildlife such that many fish hatcheries were shuttered during their tenure in the mid-to-late 80s. So I take it kinda personal when I read bass anglers criticize fisheries professionals for their decisions when they have no idea what goes into their education, training, and work. Anyone can find articles on fisheries research and even understand most of them. But I will tell you that all this is is a select group of lobbyists (tournament bass anglers) wanting to change bass regulations to suit their desires. Which is to hold catch and keep bass tournaments as they see fit. As Dean said it is not science vs. non-science, as Dan is respectfully lobbying for as a rationale for this change. Plain and simple, the argument is that since catch and keep bass tournaments presently take place during the spawn in the Northern latitudes of MI, why not have them all year long? They have no detrimental effect, right? Yet this is based on what - angler observation?

I've been fishing for almost 50 years for all types of species, mostly bass, and I would bet a Lions championship that any and all serious anglers (amateur and pro) knows the best and only way to ensure survival is immediate release. No boat flipping. No putting in a livewell with reduced O2 levels. Ask musky guys. Ask trout guys. Ask saltwater guys. Never mind how the effect on recruitment rates and how removing bass from beds affects fry survival cuz that falls on deaf ears. All the studies in the US don't matter since they weren't conducted in MI or on LSC, etc. Doesn't apply, right. There were earlier mentions of evolving as a sport. There's MLF and live GoPro bass tournaments. Those are more fun for me, as a spectator (don't know about as a participant) to watch because I think the decision-making strategy changes completely compared to the typical BASS/5 heaviest fish format where culling is involved. In any case, I think the best way to unite the cause is not to make it a science vs. non-science issue because 1) it's not and 2) it divides anglers into a Dem vs Rep mentality further polarizing anglers.

So based on this - its safe to assume that the safest time to keep bass in a livewell would be the pre-spawn and late-fall, winter months when the colder water slows metabolism, reduces fish stress and retains more oxygen? Rather than the hottest summer months when water is hot and its much harder to properly care for fish?

So why can't we do it prespawn?

[djkimmel]

It is easier to keep bass alive in livewells in colder water. WE all know that. BUT these people don't want us to have ANYMORE bass tournament opportunity so they have to come up with excuses that fit the season. That's how this has always been. Second verse, same as the first... over and over for over 30 years now I've been hearing these excuses. Meanwhile our bass keep doing fine despite more fishing...