Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths

[Skulley]

As we all know, dropshotting became legal in Michigan a couple of years ago.  Part of the regulations are that one can not fish a dropshot rig in drowned river mouths.  I guess that would mean that a dropshot rig can not be fished at the mouth of any river off of a lake.  That would mean that you can not fish a drop shot in front of the Clinton River, the Huron River, the Black River, etc.  Does this include the Detroit and St. Clair River's?  And how far out is considered a drowned river mouth?  Fifty yards, one hundred yards??  The key question would be......Can a dropshot rig be fished in Muskegon Lake?  After all the whole lake is considered a drowned river mouth.  How about any lake that is like Muskegon?  The Michigan fishing regulations are not really clear on this.  What are the thoughts from the members of this forum?  And what do you have as a reference to argue this?  I don't just want opinions for answers here.  I want facts and statements backed up by facts.  I am not even sure the MDNR can answer this.  I will be visiting the MDNR booth at the Ultimate Fishing Show and asking these complex questions.  


BD            

[csfishslayer]

Thats A great ? I have wondered my self. And your right they are not very clear about it in the book.

[dartag]

i was told Muskegon Lake was off limits when i inquired about fishing the one on one there.

[DOWD]

Drowned River Mouth Lakes listed on the DNR Website:

Drowned river mouth lakes listed by county: Allegan: Kalamazoo River and Silver Lake; Benzie: Betsie Lake; Manistee: Arcadia Lake, Manistee Lake, and Portage Lake; Mason: Pere Marquette Lake; Muskegon: Duck Lake, Mona Lake, Muskegon Lake,and White Lake; Oceana: Pentwater Lake, Silver Lake, and Stony Lake; Ottawa: Macatawa Lake and Pigeon Lake.outh Lakes are listed in the fishing regs and on the DNR Web site.

[csfishslayer]

I never seen that in the book. must have missed that page

[Skulley]

I don't believe that it was in the book.  As you know the MDNR decided to print the book every other year to save money and not all the regs were published in the book.  It is however on the web based version of the book.  Well that takes care of drowned river mouth lakes.

How about my other questions.......like
1)  How far out from a river mouth can one fish a drop shot?  Fifty yards, one hundred yards?
2)  Are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River not included because they are connecting waters to the Great Lakes?
3)  How about the other rivers that feed Erie and St. Clair?  The mouths of these rivers are considered drowned river mouths and there is no drop shotting in these mouths.

Essentially what we have are "drowned river mouth lakes" and "drowned river mouths" and that is what csfishslayer is probably talking about when he said it wasn't in the book or on the website for that matter.  Validate this won't you, csfishslayer....because I never saw it the book either or on the website with any clarity.


BD             

[dartag]

they used to Snag Salmon on the west side of the state.  they would rig a trebel hook almost the same as a drop shot.  here is a description i found. the river mouths listed are on the west side of the state.  guess it would not hurt to ask at the shows.

"Snagging" is not legal, but "Lining" is.... Lining is bringing your line through the fishes mouth (because as salmon swim upstream they open and close their mouths regularly to assit them in breathing) and when resistance is felt you set the hook. The regulations state that you must use a hook that has a gap and point of 3/8 or less and is a single hook.

[csfishslayer]

yes thats what I was saying

[Skulley]

"Snagging" and "lining" are entirely different than dropshotting and can not be compared to as the same.  Here is why.  "Snagging" and "lining" are horizontal presentations.  "Dropshotting" is a vertical presentation.  This is not mentioned in the MDNR guide.  However, after reading and researching the differences between the three techniques, the simple conclusion was horizontal versus vertical.  I got this out of several books that I own on Salmon fishing and other books about bass fishing and walleye fishing.  There is a fine line between horizontal and vertical........however the MDNR doesn't define this either.  

So therefore my three questions still stand:

1)  How far out from a river mouth can one fish a drop shot?  Fifty yards, one hundred yards?
2)  Are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River not included because they are connecting waters to the Great Lakes?
3)  How about the other rivers that feed Erie and St. Clair?  The mouths of these rivers are considered drowned river mouths and there is no drop shotting in these mouths.

I will ask these of the MDNR at the shows and am willing to post the answers here when I get them.  Any other thoughts are welcome as always.

BD                

[Skulley]

Still extremely vague to me as the three questions have still not been answered.  We are not talking about what the dnr considers snagging versus lining.  We are talking about how far out is a drowned river mouth, are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River excluded because they are connecting waters, and how about other rivers emptying into the Great Lakes.  I don't care about snagging or lining.  I care about fishing in front of the Clinton River with a drop shot rig and how far away from the last buoy do I have to be or is the river entrance where the rock opening is.  The focus of this post has been lost as the subject was changed to lining and snagging. 

I agree that I have also seen many bass being kept in tournaments that were hooked in the body and not the mouth.

Again we are not talking about snagging or lining for salmonoids.  We are talking about dropshotting for bass.  This subject is becoming more complicated than what I intended it to be.  If the MDNR kept drowned river mouths off limits to dropshotting because of salmonoids, that should have been indicated in the law.  And it is not.  The law is extremely vague to the species it protects or doesn't protect.  They use the term "fish" which to me means all fish.  But again the three questions I have posted still stands and have not been answered.  That is the subject of this post.

Again snagging and lining are horizontal presentations and dropshotting is a vertical presentation.  Those are the differences in my mind and what I have read in many different books and publications on fishing techniques which could probably be argued in a court of law. 

BD           

[bigjc]

A "drowned river mouth" is basically a reservoir (man-made).  Detroit and St. Clair Rivers certainly are not.

[Skulley]

A "drowned river mouth" is basically a reservoir (man-made).  Detroit and St. Clair Rivers certainly are not.

Not necessarily.  Drowned river mouth lakes are man-made reservoirs.  Detroit and St. Clair Rivers do have river mouths and drowned river mouths at that.  Deltas can be considered drowned river mouths and are in some cases.  Still this doesn't answer the three questions.

There are drowned river mouth lakes and drowned river mouths.  So what would be the definition of each case???  A very good question for the MDNR at the shows.  The book mentions both.  Sooooooo....which is which?? 

At one point or another I am going to be sorry for ever starting this thread...........                       


BD         

[thedude]

The law says "and specific drowned river mouth lakes are protected."
then there is a list of drowned river mouths. Most of the rivers that run into lake michigan eroded away a lake. In these lakes you can catch salmon and steelhead through out the years. If you are fishing in a lake and it is not on the list then it is NOT a drowned river mouth.

Therefore, if its not on the list, not a river and not a stream you can use the drop shot... otherwise you must use the 3" dropper line.

As for the west side river mouths, the boundary between the lake and lake michigan is considered the beach line of lake michigan.. meaning you can legally fish a drop shot within the pierheads while still considered being on lake michigan as long as you are outside where the beach would be if it extended across the channel.


So to answer your questions:
1)  How far out from a river mouth can one fish a drop shot?Huh  Fifty yards, one hundred yards?
You can't fish a drowned river mouth. Its not a descpritor, but a list of places. If you are in one of those lakes you simply cannot fish this technique there. If the body of water is not on the list, it is not a drowned river mouth. You are either in the drowned river mouth lake or in the Great lakes, if you are in the river mouth lake then no DS. If in the Great lakes DS is ok.


2)  Are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River not included because they are connecting waters to the Great Lakes?
they are exceptions to the rule. They would fall under the "streams or rivers" clause so the law makes specific note that DS technique is legal on these specific waters.

3)  How about the other rivers that feed Erie and St. Clair?
They are rivers and streams and if the law makes no mention of them by name as an exception, then DS is not legal.

It seems very cut and dry to me.

[Skulley]

Seems thedude has the answers.  Very good.  It is cut and dried when explained in a way that everyone can understand.  The vagueness (I wonder if vagueness is an actual word  ) of the law and how it is written leaves a lot open to interpretation.  I wonder how a judge would rule on this..........especially if he/she fished.   

BD             

[Skulley]

Thanks to "thedude" for summarizing the facts previously stated in this thread. I was beginning to think I had missed something. Now all bass anglers will fish legally. Right?

I don't know that any of them were facts as much as they seemed to be opinion.  Seems to me that what is written as law is still open to interpretation depending on who is reading it and how the person reading the law interpreted it.  As I said all laws are open to interpretation and the one who would make the final call would have to be a judge.  We can all interpret things in laymen terms.  I still interpret the meaning differently than others would.  That is the beauty of having a forum like this.  Hats of to djkimmel for having the forsight to creating a forum as this one.  It brings out the Rhodes Scholar in all of us.  After all we don't make the laws, we just read them.

BD           

[Waterfoul]

I recently bought some of the perch rigs to use as drop shots in these drowned river mouths on the west side.  It's not a "line" but a metal "outrig" so to speak.  Are these legal then??

[dartag]

i had made some 3 way rigs with clear tubing to hold the bait out 3" from the 3-way swivel for Muskegon but did not make it to the classic to try them.  they looked good and worked on my lake like the DS.   

[Got Fish??]

  My God men! What ever happened to us before electronics, cell-phones and dropshotting? We caught fiish we figured it out! Besides if it's too close to call . Do what any good angler would do, LIE".

[Skulley]

  My God men! What ever happened to us before electronics, cell-phones and dropshotting? We caught fiish we figured it out! Besides if it's too close to call . Do what any good angler would do, LIE".

I don't think telling a lie is the answer either.  If you consistantly lie, then you will never really know what the truth is or you tell so many that you eventually get caught up in lying and then you can't remember what you told who or who you told what.  Good anglers don't lie, they put fish in the boat and take pictures of them.  If it is too close to call.............then don't say anything.  Somethings are better left unsaid. 


BD             

[Got Fish??]

 I guess you missed my point. Before dropshot was legal, We all put fish in the boat. Now that we can dropshot it is just another rig for catching fish. I understand that the boundries of the drowned river mouths are not clear. Maybe a vist to the D.N.R. table at the fishing show,will be a good idia.