Paw Paw Lake weed kill

[TCook]

I recently have been informed that the residents of Paw Paw Lake are petitioning to undergo a massive weed kill to kill all the milfoil in the lake along with dredging areas with nutrient rich sediment. From what I understand this treatment would kill almost 100% of the weeds in the lake. This is a very depressing development for anyone who fishes one of our best lakes in MI. As proof of how great this lake is and why we want to preserve it an 8.5 pound bass was cought just last weekend. My understanding from other lakes that have undergone the same treatment has killed almost 100% of the weeds and destroyed those fisheries.
   I fished Lake Manitou in Indiana last Tues which was a lake that was shut down all of last year for a similar weed kill and it was a cess pool at best. I spoke to a local angler at the ramp who claimed prior to the weed kill it was normal to catch 50 a day there and many in the 4 pound class. Now he said you are lucky to catch a few and the fishery has been almost destroyed. What used to be a great weedy bass lake is now a mucky muddy mess with 4-6 inches of visibility, and we never found a weed in the main lake. We do not want this to happed to Paw Paw at all cost. John Gipson Jr is drawing up a petition with as many anglers as possible to try and fight this. Please contact him with your info if you would like to help prevent this. Here is the site that is attempting this massive weed kill: http://www.lakerestorationinitiative.org/index.htm

Thank you,
Tim Cook

[Dan]

I just received a letter from the lake association that my cabin is on and they to our having a special assessment meeting. It looks like they are a step ahead of the Paw Paw people and will be treating the lake. My lake use to be a premier bass lake. After a bout of LMV, the poplulation of big fish just plain disappeared. Ton of little bass that are now stunted is what inhabits the lake. After the chemical treatment, we'll see what happens. I doubt it will be helpful to the fish. I've talked to landowners on Lake Cadillac who have also been seeing a real decline in fish populations after the chemical treatments.

[Bender]

If you are in the area please go to the township meetings and fight this. I wish their was an opportunity to fight the chemical treatments of the lakes around here. I'm still reading the DEQ handbook to see if there is anything that can be done.

[motocross269]

There is a great article in the In-Fisherman Bass special this month on how weed control tactics effect Bass Fishing...It was pretty interesting..

[skeeterman190]

 This is down right ridiculous.. What gives these people the right to call for this?? Ive seen too many lakes that have undergone this weed treatment to let another one fall victim. We, Tim, Herman.Justin,John,Rich and a bunch of other need to come to these meetings and have a strong point to present to sway them. I just cant beleive that the DNR allows the people to do this! Sorry u get some weeds on your feet when you water ski, get real! find a hobby that is actually worth something other then driving around a lake getting drunk and p'ing us off! half these people are prolly the reason our country is so screwed up! (prolly better not let me speak at the meetings we'll all end up in jail) I have a buddy that lives on PawPaw lake and you can bet that he will be with us at those meeting and wouldnt ya know it hes got alot of $$$ and hes an ahole if your try to mess with him. and he Loves Bass fishing.let me know where too sign up and ill be there!-skeeterman-

[Dan]

Weed control is certainly a topic that when looked at from both sides gets very complicated. I know as a property owner on a small 300 acre northern lake, and  being an angler who loves bass fishing, that weeds mean bass. However, having to maintain a beach area, I could easily come to hate weeds. In the summer, I rake a minimum of a wheelbarrow worth of weeds off my small beach every morning.  When more boats are running in July, I have two to three times as much. It's a lot of work for an old guy. Most of these weeds are weeds new to the lake, exotics like eurasian milfoil.
With our current technology, and knowledge of biospheres, we ought to be able to come up with something that will irradicate exotics while protecting habitat and bass.
I will be watching what happens on my small lake.

[skeeterman190]

 Oh and just found out my buddy is on the Town board from Paw Paw lake huh sucks to be them.. so lets rally and not let this happen. you computer nuts out there. I need you too find out any information that you can on weed kills. Specifically the ones from Lake Manitou,in Rochester,IN and Koontz Lake, in Koontz Lake IN. Even any on other lakes that have resulted in declind fishing. The Chemicals used and the effects on the water and ecosystem. We need to stand up and fight this. whats next if they start killing our lakes!!!!-skeeterman- Phil Strakowski-skeeterman190@yahoo.com-email me anything that you can come up with. even if your not from here it will affect you sometime and dont let it happen.

[TCook]

So far I have found this on Manitou:
http://www.adaeveningnews.com/logansport/local/local_story_063001359.html
The bottom few paragraphs says how they killed the weeds too fast and the result was depleted oxygen from the decomposing weeds and large fish kills.

[TCook]

water quality assesment of Lake manitou after the whole-lake treatment with fluridone:

http://www.manchester.edu/OAA/forms/Ashlee%20Light.pdf

[skeeterman190]

Dan,I would really like some information on the things that happened @ your lake and also Cadillac. That is a huge fishery that I myself have fished many times and wondered what had happened. The water clarity went down and the fishing seemed too also.When there are no plants in an ecosystem to filter the water and (oh god im trying to recall science class here) create photsynthesis, ( i had to look it up, i was right):biological process in which the engery of sunlight is used to power the formation of organic compounds. Which takes places with green plants.(weeds that are alive).This process utimately supplies the energy required by all living organisms in an ecosytem to survive. I got some of that from a science book im not that smart!-skeeterman-Phil Strakowski-skeeterman190@yahoo.com. PLEASE HELP!

[skeeterman190]

 Dan, I see where that point can be adressed as the weeds accumulating on the shoreline, its a hassles. But, i take care of 2 houses in the Fall that all the leaves just accumulate. I get one part of the yard done.. I think? and look back and its full of leaves again.. so does that mean...I just cut all the trees down and say the heck with it?  No i find a better solution. and your right with all the technology these days we should be able to find a better solution. Mine is this.. alright bear with me im just a crazy hillbilly from Indiana.we have combines right.. that cut our fields. there are vessels just like this that do the same for lakes. im not sure that they pick the weeds up like a combine does but you get the point. we need to use something like this that cuts the weeds down.  and doesnt just kill them all off! You all need to pay attention to this because if it starts happening here and there then all the idiots get the idea in there head that...hey we need to do that to our lake to make our life a little easier. the heck with getting out there and actually doin some work to keep my place tidy(no pun intended to you Dan its the people that also tell me that they own the lake and i cant fish on there dock.) guess they dont know they have rights to the lake but own nothing that is connected to it?? ill fish your dock and pontoon anytime i want. call the DNR they'll tell you the same. i love the ones that put wires around there docks. those are the best if you can get in there, guaranteed big one!!!-skeeterman-sometimes i just vent and get things off my chest??no point keeping it bottled up.

[1javelin]

I'm game for whatever, even if it means going to jail when you talk Phil, they have to let us out eventually.  Stupid people leading stupid lives with stupid ideas, that's what creates these problems.  If you don't like weeds on your feet, ski on 25 foot of water, duh.  Even I know that.  Then, you stay the heck out of my way at the same time!!!!

1Jav

[skeeterman190]

 Herman thats why I love you man. were both outlaws. they cant keep us there forever for speaking our mind.. its in the constitution.. FREEDOM OF SPEECH! But our outlashes wont put this too rest we need to take this serious and too a whole different level. Im gonna call Jack in the next day or so and talk to him about what WE need to do to make this go away. The articles i got from Tim will help and hopefully some others. We need to outsmart these idiots.. that sounds dumb but its gonna be a task.-skeeterman-

[cr]

OK I'm not trying to get in a argument and I hope this weed kill is defeated,...but the lakes belong to everybody and the powers that be have to consider all sides of the situation. I used to water-ski at the Tournament level and the ideal conditions for water skiing is flat calm or glass . So expecting to ski in 25ft of water or down the middle of the lake is not realistic . The skiers are going to want to ski in a remote cove or the shoreline that is out of the wind. Plus people who live on the lake are going to take their kids and grand-kids out to swim off from their pontoons and not in the weeds. If it was me , I would try to come up with some kind of compromise, like killing the weeds in stages, or the weed dredging machine like they use in Oakland co.Or ask for a moratorium to study the affects of similar weed kills in other lakes.  What-ever you decide to do remember that first impressions are everything so if you go in screaming and yelling, don't expect to be taken seriously and remember that you represent bass fisherman everywhere .

[skeeterman190]

 I totally agree with your points CR. A lake is for everyone and who doesnt love that prestine morning when the suns coming up. Every kid should enjoy that. I think thats whats wrong with alot of our youth. they either have no discipline @ home or havent enjoyed the outdoors.Im taking place in Andy Buss' youth kids fishing deal this year. trying to make that a passion that atleast one more kid loves for the rest of his life. it doesnt have to be bass fishing. or anything like that. heck going out there with a bobber and catching a few gills will keep em interested. my point on this whole thing is that we all love the lake no matter if it be for ski or fishin. but to totally destroy a lake because of some problems with weeds on shore and overcrowding of lakes is crazy. Even those crazy nuts that are waterskiing at the break of dawn are loving it. but they soak up the passion of the lake and respect you. if your tournament fishing its hard but most will ski somewhere else if its early in the am not to mess you up.

[skeeterman190]

 Going in screaming and yelling will make no point.. It takes you back to the the ole saying "dont wreslte with the pig besides getting dirty the pig likes it."be smarter than the pig and bring facts and evidence. we are going to present this thing in a very mannered way. and represnt US as Bassfisherman. i know of at least 3 of us in this clan that want to make this our LIVING!(JOB)-skeeterman-

[TritonTR20]

Really need to do it well. The powers at be will premise that the lake will be cleaner, clearer water when done. Most lake association people will not do the homework to find out what is true and what is not. Present the facts and then provide viable alternatives. Without efective alternatives you will get nowhere.  Kill exotics and leave the natural weeds. Even at that, the dead weeds will be a problem.

[Dan]

Having been in a lake association for over 20 years, I don't think I can agree that there won't be people from the association that are very well versed in the pros and cons of what they will be postulating. My thinking is, ( I'm drafting a letter to  our association because I will be down in Alabama at the Elite event in Decatur on March 28 when their weed hearing is.) that I would emphasize that killing off the weeds would be one of several options and within those options there would be several strategies to consider.
I would present others possibilities, such as weed harvesting, introducing natural predators, etc. If you have ever been on Houghton Lake they have large harvesters that cut and collect the weeds that they then truck out.
I would underscore the cost of these options. Money concerns right now will creep into peoples heads faster than it would have a few years ago. Dollar costs will definitely sway opinions. Killing weeds is just temporary. It will need to be pursued from now on. Many folks won't realize that this is just the beginning of a cost they will have to bear for a long time.  Why, because immediately after treatment, you will have boaters bringing in aquatic vegetation attached to props, trailers etc. Unless you have someone sitting at the ramp inspecting each rig then here comes your weeds again. Now, you have your weeds back and your fish are gone as well.
I would really try and emphasize the phosphorus issue and the oxygen depletion aspect of chemical treatment of weeds. Weed decomposition will increase the phosphorous which will incite explosive algae blooms. Most people hate the algae blooms worse than they do the weeds. The oxygen depletion caused by the extra bacteria eating up all the weeds will cause the oxygen levels to plummet, killing everything that swims. (Sewage treatment plants use this principle and have the bacteria eat all the organics. They have to install huge pumps to oxygenate the water to keep the extra bacteria alive.)
I think most people assume that this weed kill will be once and done and that's it, problem solved. No, no, no, because you'll never get it all, and you won't be able to control reentry from rigs coming in. It was brought in once, and it will be again.
Offering an option like using a small amount of chemical on a specific area each year focusing on hot spots may appease those who would want a more comprehensive program. Again emphasize the cost of yearly treatments that truly have to be done literally forever.
What about introducing natural controls, weed eating fish, aquatic insects that may feed on the weeds, etc. These things are more of a one time introduction and your done. They would also be a bit slower, but that may help diminish the large algae blooms.
Know your opponent and read all the articles that they will bring that supports their view. Have your responses ready. It should be fairly easy to anticipate the types of things they will present.
It's what I plan to do in my letter. Right now, I would harp on the expense of treating the whole lake year after year.  Hopefully, they'll buy the idea of treating smaller areas, which will allow the fish to move to untreated water and still provide the fishing we would like to have. Just my 1 cent worth.
Hopefully, in your research you may find that there are viable methods to weed control that will make everyone happy.


http://www.niwa.cri.nz/ncabb/aquaticplants/outreach/weedman/options
http://www.marinebiochemists.com/prosandconsarticle.html
http://www.ncwater.org/Education_and_Technical_Assistance/Aquatic_Weed_Control/
http://www.killlakeweeds.com/index.cfm?CFID=6534505&CFTOKEN=14452689
http://www.lakerestoration.com/c-9-aquatic-herbicides-algaecides.aspx?gclid=CNb-o4SptJkCFQoMDQodJDXL6A
http://newtechbio.com/dead-algae-and-duckweed-digester.htm
http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1036.htm
http://www.aquaticweedcontrol.com/
http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/weed_control.htm

[TritonTR20]

excellant post dan. The more info the better.

[djkimmel]

Too many people who live on lakes want a swimming pool, not a natural lake. They will never get this. NEVER! It's a lake, not a swimming pool.

They will be told the natural weeds will come back. They will be told the water will 'clean up.' But the job and purpose of the weed poisoner is to sell weed poison, not to rehabilitate the lake. That's someone else's job.

I ask this question every time I attend such a meeting - how will the lake be rehabilitated once you kill all the life-giving aquatic plants. How will you counter the fish-killing oxygen depletion? How will you deal with the muddy water you are guaranteed to get since you have killed all of the natural filtering plants?

Why are you using SONAR - a poison that kills almost every type of aquatic plant and settles into the lake bottom to kill roots and do who knows what else to humans who use the water - when there are poisons that better target only certain aquatic plants such as the exotics you say you are meaning to target?

What are you going to do about the algae blooms when they occur (not if, when)? I'm sure the aquatic plant killing company will be happy to sell you a whole bunch more poisons for a large amount fee over the next 3 to 10 years (or more sometimes) to handle the algae blooms you've created because you've taken a natural lake and attacked it in a dramatic fashion due to being (mis)led by someone whose best interest is served by selling you the most amount of the most costly poisons?!?

What are your plans to remediate the cost of the loss of sportfishing efforts you will cause with this weed kills by causing a severe and shocking major loss of fish habitat which inevitably leads to loss of a significant portion of the fish in the lake one way or the other? Other entities have been sued in court or have even been forced to pay large penalties for killing fish in PUBLIC waters owned by the state. Significant loss of fishing opportunity is not a maybe - there is an excellent chance Paw Paw will suffer major fish kills, and also overharvest due to the shock to the fish of loss of habitat and the unnatural increase in harvest that often accompanies the increased vulnerability fish have to angling pressure and harvest now that they are thrown off their normal cycle and made much more less protected due to a lack of cover.

Ask what aquatic plants are in Paw Paw besides milfoil and why would the MI Department of Environmental Quality allow native plants to also be killed if there are alternatives available that would target the problem areas / plants better with less destruction to the native plants critical to the health of a natural lake (not a swimming pool). Ask again what are the specific, detailed and proactive rehabilitation plans for the recovery of native aquatic plants AND the fish. The plants often will not come back on their own (as you will initially be told, particularly by the aquatic plant killer companies) and there are plenty of examples known to everyone with half a brain of lakes that are not recovering on their own, or a taking an incredible number of years at a significant cost to the fish and water quality.

Ask why SONAR (fluridone) was not allowed to be used in Michigan waters for a looonnngg time UNTIL after then Governor Engler split the MDNR into the MDNR and MDEQ (after promising me and the MUCC that he wouldn't do that), upon which the new MDEQ started approving the use of SONAR in Michigan.

Here is why they claim it was okay to start using fluridone in Michigan: ":Although fluridone is considered to be a broad spectrum herbicide, when used at very low concentrations, it can be used to selectively remove Eurasian watermilfoil. Some native aquatic plants, especially pondweeds, are minimally affected by low concentrations of fluridone."

The problem is - any current (wind) and more natural weeds are killed - unexpected things happen. Also, the companies that apply the poison do not have the fish or the natural lake's interest first and foremost in their mind. The more chemical they use, the more money they make - how many companies would you trust under those circumstances? They do not do rehabilitation beyond the poisoning of plants, if you call that rehabilitation. They are rarely monitored or watched by anyone to see if they follow the requirements of the permit. If you try to watch/monitor them, some of them will get very defensive and act like you do not have the right to confirm they follow the permit. You may be told you have to leave the water for your own 'safety.'

And yes, the MDNR considers Eurasian milfoil an exotic enemy making it tougher to do anything reasonable when it comes to milfoil. In defense of the MDNR though, I will remind that it is the DEQ giving out the permits and in the past, they have not worked with the MDNR in these types of issues. The MDNR often wants more reason and consideration of the lake as a natural entity, but is unable to work successfully with the DEQ to reach any compromise - a very real example of why Engler split the MDNR into the two parts - so more permits would get approved for wetlands destruction and things involving pollution and weed killing. I'm providing these comments from first hand observation and involvement.

Just remember to attend any meetings. Respond to any public notices in time allotted. Ask for detailed plants for fish kill remediation and rehabilitation of the lake AFTER they kill all the aquatic plants. Find out the name of the company they are hiring and you can search for them on the Internet to see if you find any reports of abuse and other issues of misuse - the common problem that turns an supposed attempt to 'rehabilitate' a lake into the creation of a mud pit.

Understand going in that what we will most likely think of as abuse, the applicator will consider to be perfectly normal and acceptable. We don't have to agree because that is just their opinion and it is no better then your opinion in the end.

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/fisheries/420-251/420-251.html

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/guide/herbcons.html