Finding the fish???

[bassbuster]

OK here goes......My fishing partner and I have been bass fishing for the last 3 years or so and this includes local tournaments. Here is my problem which I'm sure you have all heard before but I could definitely use some help. Basically the first year we spent learning the ropes and the second year we were feeling a little better because we would learn a couple of new spots on the lakes that we were tournament fishing even though we would come up short in most cases and we always just thought well we didn't hit the right spot today. But now that we are into the third year it is plainly obvious to us that out of the 20 or so boats that are in our regular tournament circuit there are a few that just plain kick our butt ALL THE TIME. These guys always seem to find the fish and I hope I don't sound like too much of an idiot but I'm pretty sure it mostly has to do with location.

In the beginning I just figured we had to learn the lakes and find or stumble across the "good spots" but after the last couple of years and finding quite a few areas to fish on each of the lakes we just seem to always pick the wrong areas to fish and for the life of me I'm not exactly sure what these other guys know or notice that we don't.

For example yesterday we fished and I came up with only 2 legal fish in an 8 HOUR tournament and both of those came in the first hour. My partner did even worse and came up empty handed on legal fish for the day. Sure I caught lots of fish for the first 4 hours but everything measured short. And it wasn't like it was a tough day for everybody because of the 20 boats I think only us and 3 others came in without a limit and there were a few that had a couple of 3-4 pounders in there sacks and that's not too bad for the lake we were fishing. I guess what I'm getting at is I think we need to learn how to eliminate unproductive water period and also before we even start based on the conditions at the time.

I know there's a lot more to this than you guys can type in a 2 paragraph reply but I'm just looking for a place to start working towards being on the next level with some of these other guys that we fish against. I'm not too overly competitive but getting badly beaten repeatedly is getting old and I'm not exactly sure where to start. Sometimes it feels like we just start flailing while we're out there unless we get lucky and pick the right spot to start the day. We do a lot of spot picking based on past experiences on the lakes and it's not working for us and I'm sure there's a reason but I'll be darned if I can see it.

Thanks in advance fellas.

[t-bone]

I like this topic because I'm with you on this one.

I think I fall into a couple different scenarios, maybe these apply to you as well:
- Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If you haven't caught winning bags in an area/spot, what makes you think you will in the next tournament.
- I always wonder if I'm not using the big fish lure. I think sometimes, they are there and I just need to adjust to get the bigger fish to bite.
- I've watched a few of the really consistent guys and what I now realize is they have way more patience in an area than I do. If they know there are fish there, they'll hit it all day and they expect the big fish to show up
- I think the consistent winners are pinpointing targets and working their spots better than I do. Its the whole spot on a spot thing. Talking with guys, they get really specific in an area.
- I think these guys spend the time that I don't. They prefish a LOT. They put the time in and when they come to the tournament it is largely figured out and they don't spend time eliminating water during the tournament.

I'm getting self aware of my shortcomings - I think it is the first step but I'm a long way from a consistent winning angler.

[Lightningboy]

OK, I'm gonna give this a shot.  It's a LOT more than can be said here, but there are a couple of starting points.

First & most important, you need to believe you can catch fish anywhere.  I know this sounds silly, but the belief in your skills is first & foremost in making it happen.  Catching bass is a two step process: find the fish; catch the fish.  You need to believe that you can catch the fish if you can just find them.  Call it simple confidence in your ability.  This will improve greatly with experience.  The more you catch, the more you believe you will catch.  Guys like KVD, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, all have one thing in common.  They truly believe that what they are doing at that moment is gonna work.  If it doesn't, they figure out why after and learn from the situation.  But they truly believe they are gonna make it happen.

I believe that if I know where fish are, catching is simply inevitable.  Only reason I'm not making KVD money is that I'm too slow at figuring it out in time.  Most times I can figure out where I went wrong after hearing a little about how they were caught.

Secondly, quit believing in a magic lure.  We tend to fish with what we have confidence in, and get stuck in that rut.  Each season I pick out a new technique or two, and try to learn them.  Eventualy you regard your tackle box as a tool kit, with different tools for each job.  And you need to know those tools well.  I can tell you about how deep each of my cranks will run.  Not exact, but pretty close.  Knowing about how heavy of a bullet weight you need when your pitching a beaver is important.  This requires time on the water experimenting with different baits.  Want to learn to fish the jig? Head out with a handfull of jigs & trailers, and fish them all day.

But you also need to tackle the other part of the formula, finding fish.  Start by digesting all the info you can, from books, videos, and others.  Same guys cashing checks all the time?  Get to know some of them.  Yeah, you'll get a lot of BS; but somehow fishermen need to plant just a little truth in their story to make it believable.  Listen to enough dock talk, and compare to where you saw them on the water.  You'll be able to pick out the lies pretty quick.

And there's nothing wrong with checking out the bent rod pattern.  I'm not telling you to follow anyone & spy; just be observant.  If 6 boats are parked on the same stretch for the first two weeks of the season, they're there for good reason.  Keep an eye on your competition, and find out the why's.  Then take that knowledge & try to find similar situations elswhere on the lake.

But most of all do your homework on bass behavior.  There are many sources out there, here's a few that helped me.  The In-Fisherman series are pretty good.  Especially the information on classifying lakes, resevoirs, and rivers.  An article they ran many years ago was how Rick Clunn divided up & aproached resevoirs.  Bassmaster can be very good.  Also, some of the many articles available on the net, especially the rash of new videos available at places like youtube.  Many pros want the exposure, and are climbing on internet video as a quick way to reach many.

Also, spend as much time as possible with others in the boat.  You can learn a great deal about bass behavior, new techniques, or how other sticks approach a situation.

There's a billion other little things you can do too.  Keep a fishing log.  Practice with your electronics.  Work on boat control in different situations.  Practice your casting skills in the back yard.  The list just goes on & on.  But that's why it's such a satisfying sport.  The game continues to change each season, and forces you to learn more. 

I'd be happy to answer any individual questions you might have.  Makes it easier when the subject isn't so broad.

  ken@nemesisbaits.com

[TCook]

I found these tips from the late Don Applegarth very helpful. It would be worth your time to read and study these tips to help you get a better understanding of how to locate bass under different conditions and seasons.

http://bbcboards.zeroforum.com/zerothread/169143

[motocross269]

This is a great topic....I have been struggling with just this subject this week on lake st clair...

[bassmandan]

very very very well said LB 

[billy8878]

This is a great topic because I have the same problem and in my 1st season tournament fishing.

What I don't understand is I pre-fish a lake and tear em up, the next day I come back an nothing there. I think I am just rushing myself and need to slow down a little during tournament time.

[gr@ssmonkey]

very very very well said LB  

u need to read LB's post more than once,he's right on all the answers are there.......read in to the tool box/ lure this is very important to understand........u can't take a 9/16 bolt off with a 1/2 inch wrench(believe me won't work,my dads a gearhead heard this my hole life before i even fished..lol) same goes for your tacklebox,u must look at the situation(meaning type of cover,depth of water)and pick...1  a lure that works in that cover or depth and 2 one that u think they will bite.....stay with me now bass buster,this is IMPORTANT in my fishing game....of the lure u picked is it a feeding lure or a reaction lure,the best lures and technics draw from both spectrums(feeding and reaction)......ok now when your looking for these "hotspots" i would be searching with a powerfishing reaction bait like a crankbait/rattletrap/buzzbait/spinnerbait/pop'r....its endless but again which 1 works in the cover/structure best that i'm fishing in,like LB said there is no magic lures......thats important but the other part of the puzzle finding them is as important....keep posting bassbuster, get more specific...we'll try to help!!!!!

[gr@ssmonkey]

This is a great topic because I have the same problem and in my 1st season tournament fishing.

What I don't understand is I pre-fish a lake and tear em up, the next day I come back an nothing there. I think I am just rushing myself and need to slow down a little during tournament time.

billy need to be a little more specific,say if your catching them off any shallow water cover,them fish tend to be loners and won't replenish very fast,and as for the deeper fish sometimes fish get acustomed qiuck to lures.. u would be surprised(as i have been plenty before)to what a lure change will do,not just 1 but several and what might happen is u end up catching 1-2 on one lure and 1 on onther and 1 on another and thats how the day will go....and another thing is to look were u think them fish went to,if the conditions changed,how did they change(sunny-deep/shallow heavy cover...CLOUDY-roaming... use search lures to locate) it's hard not to prefish,but with experience you'll be able to just look at your spots and only catch 1 or 2 and have a good idea of the spots ability...more than anything billy,pay close attention to time of year and how you feel out there when u are catching them...like i remember it was chilly,my hands were cold,but they were smashing that rattle trap....and i remember  it was hot out during the day but had a sweatshirt on by dusk and the pop'r but was fierce... the pros call this "time on the water"

[bassbuster]

WOW, you guys are awesome...............I guess I did come to the right place.

I am starting to take to the time to learn different techniques and different baits. I'm trying to fill my "tool box" and at the same time learn how to use the tools that are in it. I have learned that just because I can go out and buy a jig that doesn't mean I can effectively use it. I am pretty good with a T-rig and one of my personal new favorites is a wacky rig which I think I more than push it's limits sometimes because I'm so comfortable using it. I had originally decided to learn a jig this year and the first 3 times I went out in late spring to use it I never got a bite on it..............not one. Wrong place, wrong time................probably, but it dumped all my confidence in using it. I have also learned that you guys are right, there is no magic bait anywhere...............refer back to the tool box and start from there.

I guess I'll try to get a little more specific with 2 questions right now and up front I'll say that I've got a small local 3 hour tournament that I fish every Tuesday night on Long Lake in Ionia county so I don't accidentally scam any big secrets from anyone on here that might fish against me. It's a 350 acre lake that has pretty good submerged weed cover, a few points and a couple of humps. The water is what I would call slightly stained to stained because you can see down to about 4-6 feet in most places. The water temp has been running in the low to mid 70's on most of the lake. It gets tournament pressure from 10-18 boats on a weekly basis plus the local fisherman plus all of the recreational traffic. Now we can usually locate a couple of keepers and on occasion we'll get lucky and pull in a limit. Not usually anything too big but I know there's at least a few 4+ pounders in there because I've seen them in these other guys sacks at weigh-in.


OK LB, so here's my question..........on a day like today with the sun shining all day and the temps running the way they are how do you decide where to start???and what you're gonna use??? If we fish just into the weeds in 6-10 foot of water we'll come up with a few keepers along with plenty of dinks. If we go out deeper it seems like we can't get a bite and come up empty handed.


I see guys that fish against us that are comfortable fishing only shallow or only deep. And while they will sometimes win based on where the fish decide to be, more often then not they come up short because they are unwilling to get out of their comfort zone and I don't want to be like that. But at the same time if I can't get a bite doing something else I find myself always going back to what's comfortable and at least getting a few but I know that's the wrong answer. Like I said before it feels like we're just flailing around and hoping for the best and I know there's a better approach to this than that. I just need to learn how to go about learning that approach and then putting it into practice. I realize I'm never gonna be a KVD but I also know I can be better at this than I am with just a little guidance.

And I will definitely look into the materials you guys mentioned and do some reading.............and time on the water. Trust me, I'm open to advice and I will take it. Thanks again fellas.

[Skulley]

It is all about time on the water.  I have fished tournaments since the late 1980's.  I spend over 100 days a year out on the water.  I spend most of those on Erie and St. Clair.  I rarely fish inland anymore as I don't like jet skiers or weed kill.  Jet skiers are rude and as they do have a right to be there, they never seem to respect the space between themselves and fishermen.  As for weed kill, I think it shuts the fishing down and depletes the lakes of oxygen.  No plants, no oxygen in the water and that is simple science.  On St. Clair and Erie you can go out there and not see anyone for hours and I like that. 

BD            

[bassmandan]

if there are points and humps...throw cranks around them and try to locate some fish just make sure you have different baits that will go different depths if you get a couple of keeper bites id say that would be a spot to go to during a tournament. keep in mind the size of the fish you are catching and dont pound on em all day, your trying to locate as many possiblities during practice and eliminate dead water.  i would actually try fishing in the shallower water and work different depths till i find some fish, and during the morning you might be able to find some fish roaming around some sort of cover and as the sun comes up fish will start to move tighter to shallow cover or move out to deeper water. now with that said its up to you to discover what the fish prefer.

[MBell]

Time on the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It takes longer than getting spots from people but you'll be better off in the long run.  The better anlgers have the ability to make the right adjustments on the water.
-Matt 

[Lightningboy]

I've never been to that lake, so I'll need some more info. 

What kind of weed cover are we talking about?  What kind of mix, shallow & deep.  How shallow & how deep do the weeds go?

You mentioned the water being slightly stained.  Is that from suspended silt, or tannic acid?

What mix of fish are in the lake?  LM only, or a mix of species.  What kind & how dense is the panfish population?

Any unique bait fish?  Shad, cisco, etc.

Lightningboy is on the case.   

[bassbuster]

As far as for the weed cover we're talking about hydrilla and I believe a little bit of coontail that runs anywhere from 2' down into 10' and possibly a little deeper. The staining in the water is from suspended silt and I believe it's generally caused from all the speedboats and waverunners out there whooping it up because otherwise if you get there in the early morning or early afternoon(weekdays) before they get out it's quite a bit less silty. BTW what is tannic acid and how does it effect the lake? As far as for fish there are LM only, no SM but you also have pike, doggies, some catfish and bullhead, very few perch but there are of course bluegills/sunfish. The panfish density is what I would call average to a little above average and the vast majority of them stay on the medium to smaller side because the lake gets quite a bit if fishing pressure. As far as for any unique bait fish there are none that I am aware of. There are weed flats that stay around 3'-6' deep and at the edges will dump fairly quickly into 12'....15'.....20' and even a little deeper. These areas are where we find the points and that's what we will generally try to fish.

Now here's another question to add to my list...........what makes any one of these points better than another??? I mean when I look at them I see shallow weeds that break off into deeper water on an outside corner/point. This is where I sometimes wonder if I'm just using the wrong bait or something. For example I've been catching the fish on the lake using a wacky rig and pushing in out into even 12' of water. If "I" threw anything else I couldn't get a bite. Now last night I decided I was going to throw a jig and even work the points with a carolina rig and have a crank ready to make a few casts with and I never got a bite on anything except the jig and all I caught with that was pike. I even used a drop shot (on braid ) hooked wacky style because there were a few fish suspended a couple of feet off of the bottom and only got a pike with that. My partner however finally gave in and used the wacky style all night and he landed 3 legals and a number of shorts but nothing of any real size. For the last hour I threw the wacky and caught probably 8 fish, only one that just measured and the rest were dinks. The winning sack was only about 10lbs and most every boat out of 14 had a limit. We may have too if I had just used the wacky instead of trying to throw a jig just to use it. So from all of this info  can you tell me where we went wrong??? or did we just not find the right spot of fish. I will say it was one of the better bites we've seen on the lake all year.


Oh yeah, there's a 5-6 year old kid that fishes in it with his dad and he won Big Bass last night with a 3.74lb fish. You should have seen his face when he hooked into that big boy. 

[Skulley]

Time on the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It takes longer than getting spots from people but you'll be better off in the long run.  The better anlgers have the ability to make the right adjustments on the water.
-Matt 

All the above is true.  I have a friend that has never to my knowledge ever spent enough time on the water to find his own fish.  He gets spots from others rather than spending the time on the water to discover his own.  I prefer to spend time on the water.  I don't listen to "dock talk" much as it can cloud your judgement on the water.  In other words, you start second guessing yourself rather than going with your natural instinct in finding fish.  Like my friend, he listens to "dock talk" or any other input he can get from others.  I have fished one tournament with this guy and will never ever fish another.  I fish with him for fun but that's it.  In a tournament he can not help because he has nothing to offer except spots that he got from others. 

I would suggest being your own person and spending the time on the water.  Prepare by looking at charts and pin pointing areas that you would think hold fish.  I spent two hours last evening looking at a chart of LSC and as I believe the fish are falling into summer patterns out there looked for other areas similar to what I fished last time I was out there.  I found on the chart about a dozen more similar areas.  I wrote down the waypoints and will try those areas next time out.  I will spend about 30 minutes on each spot.  If I catch fish, I will note that.  If I don't catch fish there, I will save it for another time but won't give up on that area in the future as during sometime of the year, it may hold fish.  I have found the more scientific I get about it, the more successful I am.  There has never been a time in the last 5 or 6 years that I go out to St. Clair or Erie and get skunked.  I may not catch a lot, but I do catch some.  Those are the pitfalls of being scientific about it.  But I have reaped some huge rewards by following my own process rather than relying on someone elses spots.  Give it a try, you may surprise yourself on how good you really can be finding your own fish.


BD               

[bassbuster]

And really that's what I'm trying to learn BD. I've learned over the years that you're much better at something if you figure it out by yourself but sometimes it can be very frustrating too. Sometimes my problem is if say a certain spot looks good but it produces no fish. Does that mean the spot is no good or that spot for that time of year is no good or did I just use the wrong bait and/or presentation? I'm one of those people that usually needs an answer to the question why and I don't know the answer...............why didn't we catch any fish there besides the usual answer you get from guys.............they weren't biting. I guess what I'm really looking for help on is the answers to the post fishing questions I have. Once I can start to answer those then I can figure things out better on my own and hopefully start to get better.

[TritonTR20]

When you get keeper fish, analize what you were doing and where they came from. Was it the windy lakeside? Calm side? What type of weeds were there? Example: Sometimes fish prefer cabbage over coontail, etc. One you have this picture, look for simular areas around the lake. When prefishing look for those spots all over the lake so that if the wind changes, you still have simular sopts on the other side. Most people agree it takes three consecutive days to prefish. Really good fiherman have their patterns down for cloudy days, bright sunny days, early morning, mid day etc.

[Buckeye]

I'm going to give this a whirl too.

I totally believe in understanding seasonal patterns, not that I am an expert on it by any means.  But I think if you think understand the seasonal pattern, identify the forage base on a lake, everything else comes down to the day you are fishing.  Are the fish aggressive, or are they finicky?  Where did I catch that fish, sunny side or shady side of the target?  And so on...

I fish a lot, but I wouldn't call it prefishing.  I think what ends up happening is you wade through too many fish, and then come tournament day, they are sore-lipped.  I tend to fish to my strengths, and when I fish my club toruneys, I look for new water.  I rarely fish the same area for a club tourney.  One, it's just for fun and I'm trying to learn something new.

Take this past weekend, where I fished on Lake Erie both days.  I finished fourth on Saturday out of 18 and 6th or 7th on Sunday.  Everyone griped that I caught largemouth and nothing but.  Well, it wasn't because I didn't try for smallies, I just went to new reefs I had never fished and wanted to scout out.  I was way off, but that's okay.  I weighed two limits and finished pretty well in both tourneys.  But, I've elimnated water and I fished water I didn't know and caught two limits.

Even when I pre-fished, I fished somewhere I have never been before, and went and fished to my strengths.  I caught fish.  Now, it becomes a guessing game of what should I do on tournament day, and then let the chips fall where they may.

I also think we overindulge in lures.  I keep plastics simple.  I have very few colors:black/blue, pumpkinseed, watermelon, green pumpkin and white.  I don't feel I need much else.  Spinnerbaits...white, char, and char/white.  Same with buzzbaits except I add black.  I like cranks, but my wife could pick crankbaits out for me, because I like certain colors. 

Hope this helps...remember, it's fun even if it's a competition.  Most of the guys I compete against are great people.  That's why I encourage people to fish clubs.  You learn a lot, quickly if it's the right kind of club.

Eric

[River Walker]

Guess I'll jump in here too.When I first started fishing tournaments,I would try to do pretty much what I saw other anglers doing.I would try to cover as much of the lake as I could,and throw everything at the bass I had with me.Obviously I didn't fare well.Now whenever I'm fishing an inland lake,I really only concentrate on a very small number of locations,and I only use a couple of techniques.I totally agree with what's already been said regarding fishing ones strengths.I'm pretty much a spinnerbait,crankbait and jig fisherman on inland waters.On Erie or LSC,I pretty much go with tubes and drop-shots,that's it.Although learning new techniques can be a good thing,I'll stick with what I'm good at and leave it at that.I don't ever C-rig,walk the dog with Spooks,yo-yo lipless baits,throw swim baits,or fish shakey heads in tournaments.I may play around with some of them when I'm just fishing for fun,but those 8 hours in a tournament come and go too quickly for me to try things I'm not confident with.Stick with what you know,don't worry about what others are doing.I have a huge arsenal of gear at my disposal whenever I'm out fishing,but I really always tie on the same stuff.I only throw one style of crankbait that runs between 2'-4' deep,and I only use two color patterns.I only use one color on spinnerbaits-white/w one silver blade,and one gold blade.Jigs,only one weight,and only 2 color patterns-black/blue and brown/orange.On the big water,only 1 tube 4" Xtreme 2 colors,canadian mist and St.Clair Craw.Only 1 drop-shot bait,Nemesis Goby.All 8 of my baitcasters I have on board have 10# Seaguar fluoro,and my 2 spinning rods have 8# TrileneXT mono on them.I definitely keep things simple,and win or not,it's still better than staying home watching the tube.