So what happened at the meeting?

[djkimmel]

"why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?"

Because president Jeff Cox told Brian no when he asked to bring in the kids. That makes your attempted and nonsensical point about Brian and the kids not caring kind of moot.

I get hit up dozens of times a year by kids selling candy bars and asking for donations to fund field trips, girl scout projects, boy scouting projects, etc, etc.
Ive never seen the youth TBF doing this, Im sure Im missing something becouse Im new to the TBF...so enlighten me bud, how are they raising money to help pay for the youth TBF events or is it all or mostley on us (the adults)?

We always allowed to kids to have their time in the past with a few fundraisers and they did very well. And if you tell people you are raising money for youth and conservation then the money better go to youth and conservation. How many people will donate money if you tell them it is going so a bunch of adults can go fishing? You ever have a grownup come up to you and ask you to buy his candy bars so he can afford to be on the state team? Would you buy a candy bar then? I think I know what the answer from most people would be. And again - see above where I say we are here for the kids. Not the other way around. I was very clear in that and don't feel I will have much trouble with most people understanding why and what that means.

You own the biggest Bass site in michigan and control the delete button, you have a group of great guys that trust you 100% and blindley follow you becouse they respect you and either dont know the whole story or dont have the time to learn ther whole story and listen to you.
using your site to influince peaple to your beliefs which at times have been TOTALY one sided will only hurt you in the long run IMO.

You are apparently willing to act out only knowing one side of the story. I don't recall you asking me any questions. But then you are close friends with Jeff, not me, so that may be why you are willing to just take his word for things. That is your choice. But you may want to rethink about what is really insulting - you insinuating that members and visitors to this site, and my friends, can't think for themselves. I will repeat an obvious point I have made before, no one is forcing you or anyone else to be one this site or read any particular posts. I certainly don't have the power to bend people to my will. They all have a will of their own and will make up their own minds.

I only delete things that break the rules of this site, particularly personal attacks, and or things that might harm the success of my business - GreatLakesBass.com. I force no one to be here. I am very glad that many people choose to visit. Thanks to those persons.

Since this is the United States, and not the USSR or some other totalitarian society, and I am a TBF member, I think I will continue to ask questions and state any disagreements I might have like anyone else has the right to do in a country founded on free speech and freedom of the press - important counterweights to attempts by bodies to do what they want when they want. Of course, if critical decisions are no longer made unilaterally by the least experienced board member(s), if the new board makes an effort to improve planning and make realistic, quality decisions particularly based on finding out what all members want first verses a few buddies, I won't have to ask many questions.

As far as Brian Belevender, I think it is a shame to try to smear the one board member who does 99% of the work in the most successful part of TBF of Michigan. Why would anyone in their right mind do something so counterproductive like that? I am the one asking the questions, not Brian. Brian is just doing his usual great job which is the most positive public impact TBF of Michigan has going for them. I'm not on the board. I'm a member and I am asking questions. If the board is divided, that is up to the board to say, but at the last meeting, they seemed like they were working together once they got to hear the new plans that were made, announced publicly and only then shared with them. A little like ready, fire, aim, but they appeared to be working through it.

I wasn't the only member who had questions or disagreed with things either if I recall the meeting correctly. Acting first and planning later will cause that to happen, along with confusion and problems interpreting actions verses meaning. All of that is coming from things sent out from and stated by the board, not from me. I just tried to point out what I believed the consequences might be. Based on my 20 years of hands on experience with these types of things.

[djkimmel]

Excellent points cameraguy. Those are some of the things I tried to explain privately prior to the meeting. I expect, based on comments at the meeting and since by a number of people, that you are repeating points many are thinking now.

I hope the board at minimum, splits money evenly amongst conservation, youth and tournaments if they mention them to the public as to why they are doing any fundraiser. If someone asks what are you raising money for and you mention these topics to get them to donate, to not be fair to each program would seem fraudulent. So I hope people don't tell a lot of people money is going towards something it doesn't go towards...

A lot more people will donate money to youth and conservation than vague or general things like 'operating expenses' (from my many years of involvement in many public fundraisers) and particularly if you say it is for things like adults going fishing. I think the non-youth and conservation fundraising should be non-public events or efforts among the members. Maybe a raffle as long as people aren't misled when they ask what we are raising money for. Plus, the onus on raising money for the state championship should be on the anglers who will benefit from the efforts.

Again, a lot easier to get other people to help with fundraisers when you tell them it is for youth and conservation, but not as many people will want to help if you tell them it is for adults to go fishing. Same deal, if you tell them they are helping raise money for youth and conservation, then a significant amount of the money raised better go towards youth and conservation. Very easy concepts to understand. You don't mislead people.

If we take your mention of $5,000 for the state championship, then we need to raise $15,000 so we can give $5,000 to youth and $5,000 to conservation or close to those amounts since the general fund doesn't need a whole lot more for things other than those areas. Of course, if we only raise $5,000 total, then that would mean a little under $1,700 for each area.

Now of course, if we hold a fundraiser and tell everyone helping and who donate it is for the state team and nothing else, then it would be appropriate to give any monies raised to the state team. That might be successful with certain types of fundraisers. Particularly those that involve the anglers who will benefit.

[WayneC]

"why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?"

If Brian and the kids dont care about the TBF general fund (which funds youth events) then they obviousley dont care about the effort the TBF and the members are putting forth for the youth and conservation.

That's a pretty big leap from the kids trying to fund themselves as best as they can to "...they obviously don't care."  TBF is about contributing to the betterment of the environment and teaching kids to fish.  It's our privilege to do so.  This relationship is paternal and not symbiotic.  Hopefully with our help they will grow to be quality TBF adult members and can make their contributions to the general fund then.

If you can, please try to be more positive with your posts.  We've been having a good discussion that anyone could read to learn more about the TBF and how it functions.  Certainly, you can post whatever you like but "...plant a destructive seed" is pretty over the top.  Don't post angry...don't post angry...

Try to wrap your mind around the issues we are discussing instead of taking thing so personally.  It helps everyone a lot.  More folks will post if they can add to a lively discussion but less so if they think they will be labeled without justification as being a "blind follower."  It's the first time in my life I've been called that and anyone who knows me would have a good laugh about it.  In fact, I won't feign being offended because I'm too busy going rogue. 

Your interest and passion are obvious and it sounds like you could really be a blessing to any group of people you become involved with.  Perhaps you could be a good influence on people when they think the ends justify the means and help them understand how following the bylaws is a good thing.  When they want to bring the competition into our organization you could help them learn cooperation.  That's how an organization can thrive when everyone is looking out for each other.  That would make you an influential member in you're own right and I guarantee you that there are a lot of good folks who would be happy to work alongside of you to accomplish these things.

[Hooksetter]

I was not at the TBF meeting but I am a member in good standing so I have a few questions and comments of my own.

Was the decision to raise dues made by the board only?
Was the decision to stop paying the $5.00 youth dues made by the board only?
Was the decision to make the 2010 fish off a no entry tournament made by the board only?
Was the decision to pay TBF and FLW dues for life for past presidents made by the board only?

If somebody would have asked me I would have said no to all of those decisions. Nobody asked me. Did any of the general membership have a say in those decisions?

I would agree to a raise in dues if I knew for certain that it was not to fund the state fish off or the state team. Those things should be self supporting in my opinion. Why would you eliminate the biggest source of funding for those events [entry fees]? If entry fees are not the biggest source of funds what is?

I don't understand not paying the youth dues. It's $5.00 each. Really.

I don't agree at all with paying the TBF and FLW dues for life for past presidents. In my opinion that money would be better spent on...TBF youth dues. Perhaps future TBF presidents?

Willie

[djkimmel]

I was not at the TBF meeting but I am a member in good standing so I have a few questions and comments of my own.

Was the decision to raise dues made by the board only?

This decision was made by TBF of Michigan president Jeff Cox before the meeting. The board then apparently voted on it earlier in the day and announced it to the presidents. No vote sought from the members.

Was the decision to stop paying the $5.00 youth dues made by the board only?

This decision was announced to the presidents at the meeting. It appears to it might come from a proposed budget possibly presented to the board members though I do not know for sure who proposed or pushed for this change. No vote sought from the members.

Was the decision to make the 2010 fish off a no entry tournament made by the board only?

This decision was made by TBF of Michigan president Jeff Cox before the meeting. The board then apparently voted on it earlier in the day and announced it to the presidents. No vote sought from members.

Was the decision to pay TBF and FLW dues for life for past presidents made by the board only?

From what I can tell, this decision was proposed by a board member at the board meeting. The board approved it and announced it to the members. No vote sought from the members.

Before the 'attack dogs' come after me again , please note I am not stating my opinion above just reporting what Jeff Cox told me verbally or by email before the meeting, and by what the board did at the meeting. I would not expect anyone to get mad at anyone else for accurately reporting what occurred.

[Skip Johnson]

Yes Willie Dan is right on all the changes, they were big and aggressive changes, I may or may not agree with the changes and I dont want to get into that honestley becouse Jeff is a good friend of mine.
all I can say is Jeff stuck himself out there and stated at the meeting he has financial backing if his new plan fails, I believe there is other TBF states that operate similer to the new plan but they do have more members therefore they have a much larger general fund like we need to achieve.
I personely would not have done what Jeff did becouse of the low membership and risk but I only say that becouse I know he needs club help and solidarity to achieve his goals, if he does not get the help he needs from "US" the new plan may not work IMO.
I will do everything I can to help and I hope Jeff gets that kind of help from you guys as well.....it is what a united club should be able to do.

I would just like it to be clear that Im not influienced by Jeff and Jeff has nothing to do with any of my posts or oppinions and I realy dont know if he shares my same oppinion, I cant get ahold of him becouse he has been hunting in Virginia for several days now.

In my oppinion seperating a fund raiser for the TBF and designating it to go 100% to the youth is not united in the 3 mission statements of the TBF (Conservation, Youth, to preserve the sport of Bass Fishing) and saying that the Youth members and family wont be at least asked to be able to help just doesnt sound right to me.

Dan Im not trying to go after or attack you, I have more important things in my life to do, my point is I think theres a problem with seperation within one organization that has 3 missions.

For example if you donote to the salvation army would you ask the guy at the kettle to let you know when is the best time to donate your money so that it went to your cause of choice instead of Admin and operation fees to operate the company thats doing the good deed...I mean realy guys you gotta realize when you donate to the kettle some of that goes to fees, so what do they need to do...have 2 kettles, one so you choose to donate to the needy and another to choose to donate towards the company costs that keep the company alive to donate to the needy...hey we could make a blue kettle 

if you thought like that youd pass that kettle up and Im afraid that kind of thinking would make some TBF fund raisers near impossible to have success, thats just not right when the very same group is the one out there donating their time and equiptment to achieve the primary goal.

you seem to be making it sound like all the fund raising is for the state team and thats not true, heres a copy of the TBF bulk mail that Jeff sent out before he left to go hunting.

" I would just like to thank those who have offered to help out with the gift wraping at BPS on Nov 28th but we are still short about 4 people.  If you are willing to give us a hans it would be greatly appreciated.  With this one fundraiser we should be able to fund our conservation project for 2010 and start putting a dent in our youth funding for the year."

Just becouse its a non profit organization doesnt mean that it doesnt have operating costs it just means no one is making an income off your donated money.

by the way it has allways cost state team qualifiers money out of their own pocket to go to regionals so the qualifiers still dont profit unless they win, the state team recieved $83 cash each to drive to Iowa and fuel their boat....kinda short if you ask me and I kinda know how much it costs since I just got back from Iowa, it cost me several hundred $.
By the way Im not one of the peaple that was trying to get more state team money and I dont think that thats Jeff's goal right now either, I think being able to fish for that kind of award without an entry fee is worth the gas $ to go to Iowa and other places.

I dont know how much clearer I can spell out my point and again Im not looking to "attack" you Dan.

I realy hope we can grow the TBF and I hope the rest of you are willing to lend a hand, we as fisherman, parents and conservationists REALY do need an organization like the TBF, its here, its up and running thanx to Dan Kimmel and Dennis Beltz, lets make it grow to the membership it needs to be....it cant do it without us!

[mikesmiph]

I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

[Hooksetter]

Thanks for the answers to my questions Dan. I appreciate it. I went to the Michigan TBF website but it is not easy to tell what went on at the meetings by the minutes. I'm sure every word, suggestion etc. is not recorded. As far as you being "attacked" again I think most people on here realize the difference between the messenger and the message, and I hope it does not happen.

It sounds to me that the board holds absolute power to make all the decisions concerning how the TBF resources are disbursed. It seems that I as a single member have absolutely no say in anything. Prove to me that I am wrong. Put these 4 issues up for vote by the entire membership. In fact, I think all big issues should be decided that way. The good of the many should outweigh the good of the few. Just my opinion.

The bottom line as I see it is this:

The dues were raised $10.00, the entry fee for the 2010 state fish off was eliminated, the past presidents will get their TBF and FLW dues paid for life and the kids were told to cough up $5.00. All that was done without even saying, " Hey rest of the members, what do you think?" To me that is wrong, regardless of who's vision it is.

Willie

[Skip Johnson]

I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

Im sorry but from the way you made it sound in your reply to my post I thought you knew when where and what time and you were going to help with it.
I will post a link to the post that you posted on, all the info is there, thank you.

http://www.greatlakesbass.com/forum/index.php?topic=6607.0

[jerkin]

WOW  way to much drama for me jeez! You are darned if you do and darned if you don't in tournament bass fishing CRAZY. Are you guy's ever happy? I miss the PHIL SMATHERS day's,  seemed to be way less drama. Show up, pay your $, win,  loose go home..... YA know... The way i see it,  KLBA does it right other than that not so sure anymore. MY 2 cents lol

[WayneC]

mikesmiph - Can't tell if you are married from the last post but if you are then you probably have great insight into all of this.  Please forgive any slip ups in decorum, there are some really good issues being worked out (growing pains) and Dan has provided a modern and running version of a TBF meeting which in my mind has shown great promise.

Joining a club is a very personal thing and finding a good fit isn't always easy.  I was lucky, there were friends who were members so it wasn't a hard decision.  What I found out after joining that not so long before that the club had at least 50 members and it ended up splitting.  The core group of folks who cared and some who had been there forever were running a top flight group (of between 20 and 30) and I had nothing but good years with those guys and remain friends with them until this day.  After becoming editor of the Federation magazine I got to meet everyone else from board members to all the other clubs.  What became clear early that not all clubs were the same at all.  There was one that had the big numbers and those guys had been able to thrive, I learned about paper clubs for the first time then there were other clubs that were so active it would make my head spin.  Again, many lifetime friendships formed from that.

I guess I just want to encourage you to not give up on the idea.  Winter is the hardest time on northern bass anglers and come April the "work in progress" will take a back seat to all the good things we set up right now for all three major parts of what we do: Kids, Conservation and the State Championship.

[motocross269]

I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

PM sent....

[motocross269]

WOW  way to much drama for me jeez! You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't in tournament bass fishing CRAZY. Are you guy's ever happy? I miss the PHIL SMATHERS day's,  seemed to be way less drama. Show up, pay your $, win,  loose go home..... YA know... The way i see it,  KLBA does it right other than that not so sure anymore. MY 2 cents lol

TBF is not a "Tournament Series"...TBF is designed for clubs to have their own internal tournaments and send their qualifiers to a State fish off...TBF is suppose to be a "Vehicle" for growing participation through a club atmosphere and to help facilitate clubs with Conservation and youth Activities...

Right now TBF is acting as one big Club....In my opinion that isn't the way it was designed......

[djkimmel]

I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

mikesmiph - I thought you were going to attend the Oakland County Bass meeting held recently? Let me know who you are trying to contact and I'm sure I can smooth it out.

I am trying to make sure things are done in a fair manner that follows the bylaws. I'm asking questions and stating my opinions. I still plan on having my own club for persons who are unable to make a bunch of meetings, fish additional club events or can't find a local club in their area. A couple persons have renewed so far with one new one calling me tonight.

[djkimmel]

It has tried to head in the right direction with more activity-based clubs signing up. My club was originally half the membership just to get us started and make sure people who wanted to be a part of the 'new' (actually original) federation could join. With a high around 50 members leaking off down to 16 or so members this year. Some of those members started similar clubs, but others joined activities-based clubs.

Those clubs should end up being the majority and core, but frankly, the whole federation idea in Michigan has been a challenge since before the split even occurred. The BASS federation had been over 1,000 members and then dropped by hundreds.

The thing I always first say to bass anglers who ask 'why bother' is to be counted. We probably would not have the statewide early bass season without the organizational side a federation provides. There have been other issues and there will be more in the future. I would like to see even 5% of the states 400,000 bass anglers belong. We could be proactive instead of reactive with those kinds of numbers! We would all be better off if that could become the initial focus and purpose for belonging.

That is my hope based on all my years of speaking at public meetings, hearings and sit-downs with government and DNR officials trying to convince them we had the numbers the should listen to. If we do a better job of covering the important and critical issues, the fishing will always be there. It is not impossible. Just challenging.

[Jighead]

The thing I always first say to bass anglers who ask 'why bother' is to be counted. We probably would not have the statewide early bass season without the organizational side a federation provides. There have been other issues and there will be more in the future. I would like to see even 5% of the states 400,000 bass anglers belong. We could be proactive instead of reactive with those kinds of numbers! We would all be better off if that could become the initial focus and purpose for belonging.

Epecially with this recent oversight by the comission appointed to protect the Great Lakes and other waterways, accidentally lumping recreational anglers in with commercial fishing.

[jerkin]

WOW  way to much drama for me jeez! You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't in tournament bass fishing CRAZY. Are you guy's ever happy? I miss the PHIL SMATHERS day's,  seemed to be way less drama. Show up, pay your $, win,  loose go home..... YA know... The way i see it,  KLBA does it right other than that not so sure anymore. MY 2 cents lol

TBF is not a "Tournament Series"...TBF is designed for clubs to have their own internal tournaments and send their qualifiers to a State fish off...TBF is suppose to be a "Vehicle" for growing participation through a club atmosphere and to help facilitate clubs with Conservation and youth Activities...

Right now TBF is acting as one big Club....In my opinion that isn't the way it was designed......

OK? IT'S ALL CLEAR NOW THANX!

[WayneC]

Thanks moto...great insight!

[MadWags]

Very enlightening thread. Alot to think about. My hats off to all those that are taking the time to make a difference.

[Mark Modrak]

Wow things never change, any time someone tries something out of the box it gets scrutinized. I think Jeff Cox and the board are trying to do something new to get membership for the TBF. Since the TBF was founded here after the split the membership has done nothing but drop and its not to hard to see why with all the bickering. Dan when Dennis didn't get reelected did you stay around to help the new President, no you got mad and resigned. Does this help the TBF? I have great respect for Dennis Beltz but membership wasn't growing then either the TBF needed a change. Due to these economic times we as a Federation need to look at different ways to make the membership grow and this is what our current board is trying to do, is it going to work, who knows but doing things the same wasn't so why not try something out of the box.
You might want to say that I'm only in the TBF for the Tournament fishing and you would be right, I have been lucky enough to make a lot of money fishing TBF Events. The organization will not survive without the State Championship, Conservation or the youth its the whole package that makes it work.
Dennis and Dan have done a great deal for this organization and the previous one, but things change. Back when it was the MBCF there were over 900 members and the most we could get to a State Championship then was 300 members, even though only 1/3 fished the State Championship it was important to them all.
All I can say is support the changes whether you like them or not for the first year and if it doesn't work then you can say I told you so.
The more youths we get into fishing the more future boat buyers there will be.