So what happened at the meeting?

[Mike Nolan]

Waterfoul; I am a small time club angler that has grown frustrated with the federations have been run, especially BFN.  I'm no great fisherman and I don't have any aspirations of becoming pro, fishing at a club level is really all I care to do.  I know Dan has been working hard to develop the TBF (along with some others that have worked hard) and I offered some opinions of things that could possibly make the TBF "The" federation of choice but these are just my opinions.  As stated my club is affiliated with BFN but I personally don't care for the Mickey Mouse way they run their fish-off and would hope the TBF places more importance on the way they run their fish-offs.  The reason I bring that up is not to suggest TBF fish-offs have been run poorly, they have not but 2010 will be (from what I understand) the first time they run their fish-off without the assistance of the BFL.  As far as scales it is my understanding that at this time TBF does not own scales and Chip Harrison is providing scales for the Muskegon fish-off.

Return Investment on Outdoors; Good one ....and very true!

[motocross269]

Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

The board said they didn't have scales at the last TBF meeting...Were you there?

Scales are a relatively cheap investment we shouldn't be getting wrapped up in that debate....I am sure there are enough TBF sponsors that would be willing to donate product for sales or a raffle to earn enough money for scales no problem.....I would think within a year it would be pretty easy to generate enough money for a trailer, Tubs, pumps, scales, boards, etc etc to allow for a quality organized weigh in...

[Waterfoul]

I don't see where Waterfoul said the 100% payback tourney was the TBF Fish-Off.  He said "they" were trying something different on the West side - nothing about the TBF in that statement the way I read it.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.  But I think there's some jumping-to-conclusions here.

Exactly... Not a TBF tourney, but a tourney under "the wing" of the FLW so we don't have to carry our own insurance.  We have secured our own 502c non-profit certification.

[Waterfoul]

Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

The board said they didn't have scales at the last TBF meeting...Were you there?

Scales are a relatively cheap investment we shouldn't be getting wrapped up in that debate....I am sure there are enough TBF sponsors that would be willing to donate product for sales or a raffle to earn enough money for scales no problem.....I would think within a year it would be pretty easy to generate enough money for a trailer, Tubs, pumps, scales, boards, etc etc to allow for a quality organized weigh in...

There's the answer I was looking for.  Was I there?  Nope.  Only been a TBF member for a week or so... besides... they seem to be on the wrong side of the state for me.  Simply can't afford to travel to these meetings.  Plus, I work till 7:00 or so every night of the week but Monday and this time of year it's impossible to change that.

[Dave Fogleman]

Some of you fellas seem a little surprized that people outside of your organization are following this and would care to comment on your discussion. Just because someone isn't a member of TBF (and I currently am not) doesn't mean that they don't follow your progress, or lack thereof, to see if they may want to join with you.
As much as I'd love to see both federations thrive, I'm not really sure that there is enough bass fishing interest in a northern state like Michigan to have two really vibrant, active, effective federations. I could be wrong. I hope I am.
Personally, I think we'd all be better off if we were all united under one banner. Which one? A few years ago I was convinced it was TBF/FLW.  Today I'm not really sure it makes any difference.
You can tell me that I'm not a member, so my opinions don't matter. You may be right, but every angler is a potential member and one thing is certain, if you're going to survive, you have to grow. One way to help that would be to put on the very best State Championship tournament that you can.

So why are guys making such a big deal about scales?

I'll tell you why. A few years ago, FLW reps came to the Novi fishing show to talk to us all. They showed a nice movie about youth fishing and talked for an hour. Their message? "B.A.S.S. is a media organization. We are a tournament organization". "They know how to sell magazines. We know how to run tournaments."

Sounds great. That year BASS didn't have their fish off on St. Clair. The door was wide open for TBF to have their first fish off on LSC. It would have drawn a big crowd and lots of new members. Where was the the first TBF fish off?  The Grand River. Raise your hand if you're one of the twelve guys that went. A golden opportunity blown. Why the Grand? Because that's where the BFL trailer was that weekend. Next year, LSC the day after the BFL. Nice turnout, nice tournament.
Year three Burt/Mullet in June. Why, because that's where the BFL trailer is. Honestly, if you had a choice, would you schedule the premier event of  your season during the spawn the very next day after 150 boats full of some of the best BFL anglers in the midwest get done picking those beds clean?
How attractive is that for the average club member?
I asked Dennis why FLW made them have the state championship the day after the BFL. (An assumption on my part) He explained to me that the BFL didn't make them. TBF had to do it because they didn't have their own scales and tubs. The BFL was actually doing them a favor by staying in town an extra day.
FLW Outdoors says you are a first class tournament organization but you can't afford a few thousand bucks for a good set of scales and some plastic tubs, but you want to make your fishoff free?

A lot of folks are very interested in your progress and are pulling for you to succeed. I know I am. It would do us all good to have two great federations in Michigan. The surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

[djkimmel]

Opinions will vary but there are 400,000 bass anglers in Michigan and I want them all to be federation members. Regardless of the variety of things it takes to attract a broad base of members it is important to do the things you choose to do as best you can with the volunteers and funds available.

[motocross269]

Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

The board said they didn't have scales at the last TBF meeting...Were you there?

Scales are a relatively cheap investment we shouldn't be getting wrapped up in that debate....I am sure there are enough TBF sponsors that would be willing to donate product for sales or a raffle to earn enough money for scales no problem.....I would think within a year it would be pretty easy to generate enough money for a trailer, Tubs, pumps, scales, boards, etc etc to allow for a quality organized weigh in...

There's the answer I was looking for.  Was I there?  Nope.  Only been a TBF member for a week or so... besides... they seem to be on the wrong side of the state for me.  Simply can't afford to travel to these meetings.  Plus, I work till 7:00 or so every night of the week but Monday and this time of year it's impossible to change that.

I know Jeff Cox is probably going to be looking for volunteers to work the TBF Booth at the Lansing or Grand Rapids show.(I am not 100 percent sure about GR)..That would be a good place to start and that would save you some driving....


We all have busy schedules and I challenge every member to volunteer for at least one event a year..One show, the Junior State fish off, whatever...This year Jack Cahn is working on a conservation project and I am sure he will need help with that(This project may be the new conservation director's baby now)....If we have 150 members and everyone does one event we will be way ahead of the game.....I have seen the struggles that Brian, Eric Bond, Jeff Cox and Dan Kimmel go through trying to get volunteers to field TBF events...I, like most people, are super busy but as long as I am a member of TBF I will find a way to at least do one or two events a year....I guess I consider it the very least that I can do....I know how many hours the board, Brian, and other guys put into trying to make this work....

[BryanP]

Well said Dave.  I think they might be surprised that both current and potential sponsors are also following this

[Jighead]

The surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

I believe they are accomplishing this by holding the Fish-Off on the west side at Muskegon.  My understanding (from what I've been told) is that this step alone has already grown membership.

[motocross269]

The surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

I believe they are accomplishing this by holding the Fish-Off on the west side at Muskegon.  My understanding (from what I've been told) is that this step alone has already grown membership.

The Championship on LSC has helped also...Along with 2 state fish offs....Maybe they should have an east and a west championship with a grand championship on neutral territory to decide the team....

[sterk149]

Some of you fellas seem a little surprized that people outside of your organization are following this and would care to comment on your discussion. Just because someone isn't a member of TBF (and I currently am not) doesn't mean that they don't follow your progress, or lack thereof, to see if they may want to join with you.
As much as I'd love to see both federations thrive, I'm not really sure that there is enough bass fishing interest in a northern state like Michigan to have two really vibrant, active, effective federations. I could be wrong. I hope I am.
Personally, I think we'd all be better off if we were all united under one banner. Which one? A few years ago I was convinced it was TBF/FLW.  Today I'm not really sure it makes any difference.
You can tell me that I'm not a member, so my opinions don't matter. You may be right, but every angler is a potential member and one thing is certain, if you're going to survive, you have to grow. One way to help that would be to put on the very best State Championship tournament that you can.

So why are guys making such a big deal about scales?

I'll tell you why. A few years ago, FLW reps came to the Novi fishing show to talk to us all. They showed a nice movie about youth fishing and talked for an hour. Their message? "B.A.S.S. is a media organization. We are a tournament organization". "They know how to sell magazines. We know how to run tournaments."

Sounds great. That year BASS didn't have their fish off on St. Clair. The door was wide open for TBF to have their first fish off on LSC. It would have drawn a big crowd and lots of new members. Where was the the first TBF fish off?  The Grand River. Raise your hand if you're one of the twelve guys that went. A golden opportunity blown. Why the Grand? Because that's where the BFL trailer was that weekend. Next year, LSC the day after the BFL. Nice turnout, nice tournament.
Year three Burt/Mullet in June. Why, because that's where the BFL trailer is. Honestly, if you had a choice, would you schedule the premier event of  your season during the spawn the very next day after 150 boats full of some of the best BFL anglers in the midwest get done picking those beds clean?
How attractive is that for the average club member?
I asked Dennis why FLW made them have the state championship the day after the BFL. (An assumption on my part) He explained to me that the BFL didn't make them. TBF had to do it because they didn't have their own scales and tubs. The BFL was actually doing them a favor by staying in town an extra day.
FLW Outdoors says you are a first class tournament organization but you can't afford a few thousand bucks for a good set of scales and some plastic tubs, but you want to make your fishoff free?

A lot of folks are very interested in your progress and are pulling for you to succeed. I know I am. It would do us all good to have two great federations in Michigan. The surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

Dave,

This is part of the reason that both federations seem to have problems - They divide the state!! its Detroit area against the rest of the state! You guys over in that area think that every state fish off should be held on Lake St. Clair and pee and moan when it is put somewhere else. They always argue that they want to catch lots of fish and when its put somewhere where the fishing is a little harder most of them won't show up for it, where in the tournament law of bass fishing did it ever say that it needs to be easy to catch fish, I would much rather fish a tournament that was hard - you are never out of it until the last minute. Until the federations can bring the state together and start acting like they care about the rest of the state, Like centralize the meetings instead of putting them down in the bottom corner of the state - Memberships will not reach the potential that Michingan has as one of the leading Bass state in the nation.  Other states don't have the problems that we do, becuase most have limited number of reseviors and we have an unlimited amount of lakes through- out our state.

[Waterfoul]

I would be more than willing to work the booth at the Grand Rapids show... but I HAVE to put my business first... and this time of year I am often alone in my store simply because of my payroll budget.  Just a fact of the retail business.  BUT, be assured that I will put in some time down there when ever I can.

And I agree with you Sterk... I'd rather fish a tournament where the fishing is a bit tough, where you HAVE to actually fish for your limit instead of just going out and EVERYONE catching big bags.  That's not to say that the Muskegon venue can't have days where everyone catches them... I've seen it happen often.  I think a lot of eastern Michigan anglers just don't know what kind of fisheries we have over here.  I'd stack White Lake up against any venue on the east side.

[Skip Johnson]

Until the federations can bring the state together and start acting like they care about the rest of the state, Like centralize the meetings instead of putting them down in the bottom corner of the state - Memberships will not reach the potential that Michingan has as one of the leading Bass state in the nation. 

Dude....you have got to be kidding me, the meetings at Bass Pro Shops, there just couldnt be a better meeting place "for a bass federation" and WE ALL can make it worth our drive there by either picking up something we need becouse WE ALL use product they stock or taking the family or just ourselves for a day at a REALY cool outdoor's store.
Coming from a state that didnt have a BPS until just recentley I can say that IMO michiganders take BPS for granted, Do you realize that peaple take vacation's out of their state just to see a BPS ?

IMO the closer TBF can stay to BPS the better, hey they just GAVE us a tremendous fund raising opportunity and the youth has another fund raising day coming up at BPS, that was just something that was tossed our way becouse we were there having a meeting plus they gave everyone a 10% off coupon....just for being there.

Just those two days alone will make a dent towards the causes of TBF and dont ya kinda think....just a little bit....that having support from such a huge fishing and outdoors company kinda helps TBF and its causes ?

I live an hour from BPS, its not as long of a drive as ALOT of you guys but in all honesty Id drive 3 or 4 hours to do a couple scheduled meetings a year at BPS, I still allways walk by the Aquarium and reels...and rods...and hunting stuff....ummm I could go on longer lol.

ok so I know Im coming off a bit strong, Im not bashing you so please dont take it that way it just surprized me that you thought BPS wasnt an acceptable meeting location, the 2010 state fish off  is on Muskeegon, thats the west side brutha...on a lake I dont know and its a 4 hour ride for me, and I'll be there and be happy to be there attempting to live the dream....and just having fun fishing with like minded friends!

Now with that being said I know its been mandatory for a rep from each club to be at the meeting to have your club be state fish off eligable, I kinda disagree with that becouse we are a big state especialy when you are coming down from the U.P. or just have a family event that takes priority.
All Id realy care about is your club is a paid member and is united with the mission of TBF, if you choose to not have a president or rep from your club at the meetings to hear, be heard or vote thats your choice but again thats just my oppinion.

[Mike Nolan]

A couple of you guys are interpreting what you're reading in the wrong light.   Dave Fogleman is a friend of mine, we are in the same club of which he was club president for five years, and he is also dissatisfied with the BFN.  We both would like a better federation option than what we currently have, which is why we are commenting on/to the TBF and giving our opinions regarding the organization.  The fact of the matter is most federation members don't get too wrapped up in the politics of federations.  As stated in an earlier post, most don't participate in conservation issues, youth issues, or fund raising issues, they just want to fish.  They really don't care which federation they are in and once they are in one they need a good reason to go through the trouble of switching, and that is the situation our club is in now.  Our club has discussed coming to the TBF. I would like our club to leave.  I would like to move our club to TBF but the first question the club will ask me is "Why would we be any better off".  At this time I can't say TBF has better leadership because I don't know if they do.  At this time I can't tell them; "the TBF runs a better fish-off" because I don't know how well or even who will be running their fish-offs in the future.  The BFL team has done a great job in the past but they are no longer in the picture.  The Muskegon tournament will be the first TBF fish off that the TBF will run by themselves, and even then they are using Chip Harrison as MC and his equipment which is something that will be temporary.  The problem is and has been NO SCALES!  This is the point Dave Fogleman was making.  He is fully aware both federations MUST move their fish-offs around the state to accommodate their members.  The point he was making was; not owning scales has hurt the TBF and acquiring scales doesn't seem like much of a priority.  If the TBF gets scales and a crack tournament team to run their fish-offs and BFN continues to operate as poorly as they have been, members will come to TBF and stay!    

[Skip Johnson]

Cool Mike I hear you and understand exactley what your saying about losing the FLW trailer and your other points, I dunno if I woulda put Pauls name out there but ok moving on let me just say please read this forum as constructive progress for TBF not destructive and the guys in this post and TBF are 110% with you and are passionatley working to make TBF a better Federation choice and something you would want to be a part of.

A while back I asked why we didnt have scales and it came down to a $ thing.
Thats understandable to me becouse theres alot of things in my life and my business I need but I cant fund.
what I do though is I try to chip away at it if possible, Ive tried making seperate funds but ALOT of the time an emergency or just something more important would come up and I would have to use those funds therefore making my origanal goal further from achievement.
Now what I do is if I can buy the things I need in parts I buy parts as I can afford them and I have physical evidence of progress.

Im going to bring it up at the next meeting and see if TBF could just say ok in 2010 we will buy a scale and bags.
in 2011 TBF would buy tubs and pumps.
we could tranport that equiptment in the bed of a truck, suv or van...and we all have vehicles that fall into those catagories.

Then set 2012 or 2013 as the year to try to make the big trailer purchase or put feelers out for a donation of a trailer, ya just never know.
If the trailer purchase doesnt work out TBF could rent a 6'x12' enclosed u haul trailer for $30 a day and have a banner made that covers it   I mean lets be real this trailer would be used less than a few times a year but my point is I think a weigh equiptment purchase should be a priority.

Im not sure what costs what but Ive seen a tournament ready weigh trailer for sale for $5k.

Im guessing a scale would be $500 or so  
Tubs and pumps $500 to maybe $1000  
weigh bags $200
a computer  
trailer $3500

so around $5k to $7k total but $700 to get started and be able to weigh our own tournament if needed.

I know theres guys here that know what kind of scales work best and how much they cost  

Anyways I do understand why TBF doesnt yet own weigh equiptment and so far the couple state championships Ive fished have gone realy well, Im sure Chip will be great for us this year in Muskegon but IMO we do need a scale and the freedom to have TX's wherever is best for us not where weigh equiptment is available and Id hate to see TBF spend $ to rent weigh equiptment like they allready have.

just more of my .02 worth  

[Waterfoul]

What if one of the clubs, which happens to have a good scale (not a $100 scale, but a high quality scale) were willing to let the TBF use it's scale at the State Fishoffs (since WE will be there anyway) and support said scale while in use (battery and such)??  This would solve the problem at this years Fishoffs.

I honestly don't see the need for a trailer.  A trailer has to "live" somewhere, thus becoming someones "burden" in my opinion.  We all drive some kind of truck or SUV... easy enough to tote a scale and tubs around (so it seems to me anyway).

[ROI Outdoors]

What if one of the clubs, which happens to have a good scale (not a $100 scale, but a high quality scale) were willing to let the TBF use it's scale at the State Fishoffs (since WE will be there anyway) and support said scale while in use (battery and such)??  This would solve the problem at this years Fishoffs.

I honestly don't see the need for a trailer.  A trailer has to "live" somewhere, thus becoming someones "burden" in my opinion.  We all drive some kind of truck or SUV... easy enough to tote a scale and tubs around (so it seems to me anyway).

Think of it in terms of a boat purchase - say you only fish once a year (which is how many tournaments the TBF has with the expection of this year).  Do you buy a brand new boat, buy a used boat, or lease/rent a nice one for the day? 

I would have to say that most economical choice would be to lease/rent a nice one for the day because you don't have to worry about insurance coverage, depreciation, and maintainence.  That same thought process can be applied to weigh-in equipment.

The equipment is only a small part of the whole deal, it takes some experience and practice to run a smooth tourney with 50-150 boats so the equipment is just part of the equation.  Chip has run multiple 80 plus boat events so he has the experience and the equipment to make it a great event.

Skip's idea to obtain the necessary equipment in phases over the next few seasons is an excellent and realistic goal - I think we can all agree it is more of a peace of mind thing than anything, maybe a little pride thrown in there as well. 

East Side, West Side, Scales, entry fees, and a few other themes seem to keep creeping into the discussion which is great because it shows how committed we all are to make this thing one special deal year after year.  We will all have our own opinions and ideas but lets focus them on things like how to get 250 people to Muskegon Lake on the 11th.  Membership will be extremely high this year and it will be a great run tournament, after that we can all come back and argue our points. 

Does anyone else truly see the opportunity we have by coming together and putting our opinions on the backburner?  We all do it for different reasons but if you're not having fun what is the point; the only thing holding Michigan back from being mentioned in the same paragraph as TX and FL is our attitudes and opinions - it is our stubbern pride that takes the fun out of it, it is an easy fix we just have to start moving forward with everyones interests as our focus.

[Dave Fogleman]

Sterk,
Your strong comments caused me to go back and re-read my post as I didn't recall writing any of the things that you spoke of in your reply.  I'm really not sure where you got the idea that I think a lake should fish "easy" to attract anglers, and I sure don't know where that whole "east side/west side" stuff came from.
But since I'm new around here, I'll chalk it up to me not being as clear as I should have been.
Let me try it again and I promise to keep the "peeing and moaning" to a minimum.
I do agree with you on one thing. As a southeasterner, I appreciated only having to drive to BPS for president's meetings but fully realize that it's really not fair to the guys outstate. In fairness the meetings should either be rotated or held in a central location.
Other than that, your whole "east/west" argument is baloney. I have friends on the Lake Michigan shore that only like to do the fish off when it's on LSC. I also know plenty of metro detroiters who enjoy going to Muskegon and absolutely love to fish Charlevoix. Two of my club members fished the divisional in Escanaba this year and would go back in a heartbeat. Those are not opinions, they're facts, so let's not perpetuate this "east/west" nonsense.
To your second point on lakes being "easy":
Clearly the the TBF needs to increase membership if it's going to make it. So it would seem that a well run tournament on a lake people want to fish would make sense.  I didn't say "limits for everybody", I said a lake people want to fish.  I sited the first fish off at the Grand River, extremely poor attendance! Why? I don't have a clue, but they just about had to draw straws to see who made the team. The reason I mentioned LSC is because it just happened that BASS didn't hold their fish off there that year and it was open and would have made a great innaugural fish off for the TBF and attracted a lot of anglers(Westsiders and Eastsiders)
Unfortunatly they n't go there because they didn't own their own equipment.
As for my comments on Burt/Mullet, if you were the tournament director in charge of choosing a date and a lake, would you ever in a million years put your state championship on during the spawn on a lake the very next day after 150 BFL boats fished it? Not if you had a choice. And my point was they DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE because they didn't have a $500 scale and a few tubs! I know many anglers decided not to participate, so the end result was it cost the TBF more membership.
I apologize if I wasn't clear enough in my previous post.  And for what it's worth, I couldn't agree more that a tough tournament separates the men from the boys and usually reveals who's put in their time on the water and who hasn't.

[motocross269]

LSC and Erie have humbled many anglers....I fished a tournament event on Erie and watched a pro that had just won 200 grand just before that on the same water only catch one fish...So I really wouldn't consider it a matter of being easy all of the time..Anyone that says they fish easy should be over here filling their bank account every weekend....

Muskegon/White lake are pretty good fisheries and I really don't think anyone should be too concerned about catch rates....It is a nice change of pace and I wish the BFLs would go back there...

Where would be a good place to hold a TBF meeting that is centrally located???  Suggest it to the President...I like BPS because of the 10 percent off but that is just me but I am willing to drive if I am available...The site location has probably been about the number of members and clubs that are east of Lansing vs West...I know there has been an increase of West siders this year so that may be something that the board should look at....How many clubs are there currently West of Lansing???

[cameraguy]

Let's see if we can find anything negative here...

Since Texas and Florida were mentioned as TBF affiliates to look up to ("the only thing holding Michigan back from being mentioned in the same paragraph as TX and FL is our attitudes and opinions"), it should be noted that according to their websites, the TBF of both Texas and Florida have a $100 entry fee for their State Championships.  I couldn't find membership numbers listed anywhere.  They might be there but it's late and I'm tired.

Okay, let me sweep that paragraph with the negative detector...nope, just facts.  So, Mr. Cox, does this post meet with your approval?