"Grand Daddy" of the 2010 Michigan Tournament Season??????

[Waterfoul]

I wonder why guys choose to fish BBT? the payout is garbage! I did the math last year and if I remember right they are paying 60-65% back. Not to mention counting all the prizes they give out that most guys dont give two craps about as part of that payout. What I would like to see happen is Lakedrive keeping two divisions and expanding the field maybe even raise the entry fee, it sounds like alot of guys want to fish this series as it is now anyways. So why not make Lakedrive that big trail that everyone is seeking?

Exactly.  Lake Drive and ROI is where it's at for better payouts. 

[markgoetsch]

I love the idea ROI has making it as close to 100% payback as possible.  If this idea catches on and anglers realize that this should be the norm and not the exception it will force other tournament trails to change their ways or fall off the map.

[senkoluvr]

BBT pays 90%, Russ takes $10.00 per boat, $20.00 goes to the classic, and $70.00 gets paid back at the ramp. It is like the math that politicians use you can call it 90% payback because 90% goes back to the fisherman or You can say it is 70% because that is what is paid back at the ramp. I don't blame any director for making money, if you don't take a little you will not do it for long. Ya I know some of you guys run 10 boat tournaments for free and that is great but if you had to deal with 60 boats 120 guys 8 times a year you would not do it for free for long.

Waterfoul: You seem to be all over the ROI band wagon how many did you fish last year? Why didn't you fish Super Bass?
Let me guess you had to work.
You don't like Muskegon Lake.
The big lake was open to run.

Super Bass could be the biggest payout tournament in the state but like you said if you don't hook your boat up and show up it will be just another tournament!

[TCook]

BBT payback at White lake 2009:

78 boats at $100 = $7800
$ payed back at the ramp = $4930
$7800/$4930 = 63%

So Russ is keeping 17% if 20% is payed at the classic.
17% of $7800 =$1326
$1326 x 5 tournaments = $6630 he keeps a year

[senkoluvr]

You have to take into account that Russ has 5 staff boats that fish for free. I am not saying that it is right but that is what he dose.

[Waterfoul]

BBT pays 90%, Russ takes $10.00 per boat, $20.00 goes to the classic, and $70.00 gets paid back at the ramp. It is like the math that politicians use you can call it 90% payback because 90% goes back to the fisherman or You can say it is 70% because that is what is paid back at the ramp. I don't blame any director for making money, if you don't take a little you will not do it for long. Ya I know some of you guys run 10 boat tournaments for free and that is great but if you had to deal with 60 boats 120 guys 8 times a year you would not do it for free for long.

Waterfoul: You seem to be all over the ROI band wagon how many did you fish last year? Why didn't you fish Super Bass?
Let me guess you had to work.
You don't like Muskegon Lake.
The big lake was open to run.

Super Bass could be the biggest payout tournament in the state but like you said if you don't hook your boat up and show up it will be just another tournament!

Not that I feel the need to ever explain myself to you, but with the job I have I just CAN'T fish every weekend.  I love my job and will not jeapordize it in any way just to fish.  I did however make it to every ROI event I said I would.

Why don't I fish Superbass?  Because BBT and NBAA are too involved for my taste.  Simple as that.   And I do LIKE Muskegon.  I also ran to White for one of the 3 ROI events I did manage to squeeze in to my schedule.  



Anyway... back to the topic.  St. Clair is a great venue for this event.  Big water, big fish.  IF I can fit it in and not lose my job I'll be in for sure.  But I won't know if I can take the time off until just about the cut off date.  I may be able to trade some time with a store manager over there to make it easier... we'll see.

[ROI Outdoors]

You have to take into account that Russ has 5 staff boats that fish for free. I am not saying that it is right but that is what he dose.

Why are we talking about tournament trails?  If you read the topic of this post it is about 1 Tournament involving the entire state, no West Side no East Side, and most definitely not about any tournament circuits.  1 Tournament with no affiliation just Sponsors and guys showing up to fish - the only way to accomplish this is to start discussing real solutions and stop pushing circuits into the discussion because they have nothing to do with this topic. 

If you would have mentioned Wonderland Marine West Open that would have been a bandwagon worth trying to jump on because they already draw around 100 boats and pay out a lot more than just money.  You say Super Bass could be the biggest tournament in the state - please enlighten us as to how a 74% payback tournament could ever be the biggest in the state, $180 entry fee at 46 boats is $8280 but only $6165 was paid out.  Is a 74% payback tournament your idea of an event that has the anglers best interest in mind?  Are these the ones with the proven track record we should all be rallying behind?

Senkoluvr your views are exactly the root cause of the problem here in Michigan, I respect you and your opinions no matter how off base they may be.  If you tournament fish we have something in common, like it or not we do so why not start contributing real solutions to something that would benefit the sport.

There are 2 things to do: 1. continue to be negative towards those who want to improve things and have ONLY the anglers best interests in mind or 2. stop and smell the coffee scented plastics and realize the whole premise of what we all have been talking about is improving the competitive angling landscape.  One exercise that might help is to wake up everyday and say to yourself "its not about me" - do that for a couple weeks and then you might understand why some of us do what we do.

That being said I hope the discussion can continue to better reflect the topic so many of us have had a great time discussing.

[senkoluvr]

I just think We have to many Tournaments in Michigan right now. If we had less tournaments we would all benifit from it. I don't care who runs them I think i am like most tournament fisherman we just want a clean run, well paying, honest tournament. And i don't expect anyone to do it for free.

I am not Bashing ROI. I am just against the idea of to many tournaments around.

Waterfoul why are you bashing BBT and NBAA?

[mikesmiph]

I agree with one part of this. I wouldnt expect anyone to run ANY tourney for free, but keep it in line. Looks to me, like there are some who have gotten greedy. I look at the payouts too, from years past, if I can find the records. Paying out only 60-70% is just greedy. Someone is putting the rest of that money in their pocket. I've never run a tourney before, I hope to this year. I'm sure there is quite a bit of work involved, but I dont think someone should make a living off of my fishing. Just my thoughts, not even worth 2 cents.

[Waterfoul]

against the idea of to many tournaments around.

Waterfoul why are you bashing BBT and NBAA?

Simple.  Payouts  And I'm not "bashing."  I'm simply saying that I don't understand how so many guys keep fishing these low payout tournaments when there are several that fish similar water with MUCH better payouts.  The "if there were more boats" argument is really a terrible excuse.  Everyone should at least try some of the new trails and see what it's like to get a Return On your Investement while traveling down the Lake Drive to visit your Grand Daddy.  

[senkoluvr]

I agree with one part of this. I wouldn't expect anyone to run ANY tourney for free, but keep it in line. Looks to me, like there are some who have gotten greedy. I look at the payouts too, from years past, if I can find the records. Paying out only 60-70% is just greedy. Someone is putting the rest of that money in their pocket. I've never run a tourney before, I hope to this year. I'm sure there is quite a bit of work involved, but I don't think someone should make a living off of my fishing. Just my thoughts, not even worth 2 cents.

Why should a guy not make a living at running a tournament if he is doing a good job, and you get what you want out of a tournament what does it matter what he makes, Most guys that run a tournament of more that 50 boats a year work on it all year round. Look at it this way if you paid a guy $20.00 an hour and he ran 8 tournaments a year plus a classic lets say 12 hours a day they have to be the 1st one on site and are the last to leave that's about that's about $2200.00 for 9 tournaments now add what time is spent on the phone looking for sponsors, taking calls from guy that are complaining or asking questions about the tournaments, working sport shows and open houses, paper work after the tournament, mailings, and don't forget the tax man. I would not do it for the Kind of money that Russ from BBT makes, or even Ed from Shoreline he makes less than Russ and does the same amount of work.

Now look at a Group like NBAA I bet it's a full time job during the season just taking phone calls from members, some one has to get paid to put all of that together. They have 2 guys from what I know putting all of that together now that is a ton of work what ever they make it is not enough...... We don't need to bash on the tournaments that are working for us we need to support them, the more boats the better the payback will be.

I would rather fish a 150 boat tournament that pays 4000.00 and have the director take 10 or 20 percent, than fish a 20 or 30 boat tournament that pays $500.00 and the director is free.
In the end it cost me the same in gas, entry, and launch fee.

I would just like to thank the directors that put all the work into what they do for us Russ, Jim, Jack, and Ed.

[mikesmiph]

You cant be serious. If you are, then I guess I wont see you at any tourneys this year. My loss

[gr@ssmonkey]

hey senkoluvr.......u must be new to the tournament seen.......take a VERY good LOOK at the lake drive tournament this year and u will see what other tournament trails COULD be doing for the fisherman.....if u fish those trails u mentioned,your settling for the crumbs that drop off those guy's table(like a little mouse),those trails are not passing on the GOOD sponsor gifts they get(because we show up) and if they do they take the money out of your entry fee to pay for what they got for free,because u showed up.....this scenario goes on and on.....again when lakedrive come's this year do the math after the first tournament and i want somebody to explain to me how his payout is over 100% in cash.....I know how he does it and the other tournament circuits could do the same or similiar BUT THEY DON'T!!!! I don't think lakedrive had to spend to much of his time to get AL&BOBS to pay 3 big bass prize's of $1000 each and that doesn't even come out of your entry? why would jeff at lake drive do that,he must be crazy right??? no he's a tournament fisherman himself...thats why.......think if those other trails got someone to give them a $1000 for big bass,think that u would see the $1000.....i can almost tell 1000% NO, u would see $500 and not know any wiser if even that!!!!!!

to everyone thats reading this post.....you spent the money to buy a boat,you spent the money to buy a truck to haul it,you spent tons of money on tackle and rods&reels(which funds are dnr and wildlife projects) you buy tons of gas and oil,electronics,tire's,jackplates,trolling motors........the list goes on and on....YOU should not settle for the crumbs off the table when YOU built the table.....pull up a chair senkoluvr and feast with us on the LOINS SHARE of the meal......WE WELCOME U AT ROI.....

[senkoluvr]

hey senkoluvr.......u must be new to the tournament seen.......take a VERY good LOOK at the lake drive tournament this year and u will see what other tournament trails COULD be doing for the fisherman.....if u fish those trails u mentioned,your settling for the crumbs that drop off those guy's table(like a little mouse),those trails are not passing on the GOOD sponsor gifts they get(because we show up) and if they do they take the money out of your entry fee to pay for what they got for free,because u showed up.....this scenario goes on and on.....again when lakedrive come's this year do the math after the first tournament and i want somebody to explain to me how his payout is over 100% in cash.....I know how he does it and the other tournament circuits could do the same or similiar BUT THEY DON'T!!!! I don't think lakedrive had to spend to much of his time to get AL&BOBS to pay 3 big bass prize's of $1000 each and that doesn't even come out of your entry? why would jeff at lake drive do that,he must be crazy right??? no he's a tournament fisherman himself...thats why.......think if those other trails got someone to give them a $1000 for big bass,think that u would see the $1000.....i can almost tell 1000% NO, u would see $500 and not know any wiser if even that!!!!!!

to everyone thats reading this post.....you spent the money to buy a boat,you spent the money to buy a truck to haul it,you spent tons of money on tackle and rods&reels(which funds are dnr and wildlife projects) you buy tons of gas and oil,electronics,tire's,jackplates,trolling motors........the list goes on and on....YOU should not settle for the crumbs off the table when YOU built the table.....pull up a chair senkoluvr and feast with us on the LOINS SHARE of the meal......WE WELCOME U AT ROI.....

I think you do have to pay The Big Bass Pot at Lake Drive, you pay at the ramp if I remeber right. And do you realy think Jeff is doing it for free? C'mon you have to be smarter than that! Even if he does not take a dime from the tournament if he sells 1 boat out of the deal he makes more than Russ and Ed will in a year. As for ROI Why? entry $100.00, Gas $50.00, Membership $35.00 per man, ramp fee $10.00 = $230.00. What was 1st place last year at the biggest tournament? $400.00 It seems that I can win 3x that at a BBT, or Lake Drive, If ROI is so great why won't he have 75 boats? From what is being said about Lake Drive they will fill in 1 day and it the first year for the north division..........

I think the brain trust at ROI needs to look at what Lake Drive is doing......... They have a 1 year head start on Lake Drive in this area, and the will be a DNF at the end of the race.

[gr@ssmonkey]

exactly senkoluvr,sell one boat,thats not out of my entry,i don't care if tournaments make a little money but you can't be eating prime rib for running the tournament when i win it and i have to eat hamburg   i don't care if jeff is making money because he's suppling what the fisherman want.......just tring to talk some cents into u senkoluvr....i'm going to fish lakedrive and roi and have a smile on my face....i've been waiting a long time for this.....please all u keep fishing NBAA and the rest of the CHARITY tournaments...i'll be collecting the loins share at the platinum tournaments

[JohnBoy]

l

I agree with one part of this. I wouldn't expect anyone to run ANY tourney for free, but keep it in line. Looks to me, like there are some who have gotten greedy. I look at the payouts too, from years past, if I can find the records. Paying out only 60-70% is just greedy. Someone is putting the rest of that money in their pocket. I've never run a tourney before, I hope to this year. I'm sure there is quite a bit of work involved, but I don't think someone should make a living off of my fishing. Just my thoughts, not even worth 2 cents.

Why should a guy not make a living at running a tournament if he is doing a good job, and you get what you want out of a tournament what does it matter what he makes, Most guys that run a tournament of more that 50 boats a year work on it all year round. Look at it this way if you paid a guy $20.00 an hour and he ran 8 tournaments a year plus a classic lets say 12 hours a day they have to be the 1st one on site and are the last to leave that's about that's about $2200.00 for 9 tournaments now add what time is spent on the phone looking for sponsors, taking calls from guy that are complaining or asking questions about the tournaments, working sport shows and open houses, paper work after the tournament, mailings, and don't forget the tax man. I would not do it for the Kind of money that Russ from BBT makes, or even Ed from Shoreline he makes less than Russ and does the same amount of work.

Now look at a Group like NBAA I bet it's a full time job during the season just taking phone calls from members, some one has to get paid to put all of that together. They have 2 guys from what I know putting all of that together now that is a ton of work what ever they make it is not enough...... We don't need to bash on the tournaments that are working for us we need to support them, the more boats the better the payback will be.

I would rather fish a 150 boat tournament that pays 4000.00 and have the director take 10 or 20 percent, than fish a 20 or 30 boat tournament that pays $500.00 and the director is free.
In the end it cost me the same in gas, entry, and launch fee.

I would just like to thank the directors that put all the work into what they do for us Russ, Jim, Jack, and Ed.

I like this guy, looks like he has done his homework.

One of the things that I think most everyone overlooks when these discussions pop up every year is that each tournament circuit is designed differently.

NBAA is designed for the angler that wants to fish a classic. Yes they only payout 70% at the ramp but if you take into account they give three boats away at the classic then you would get about 300% payout.If you fish a 5 tournament circuit and fish one classic and win a boat that is like 1000% payback. Yes Im sure that they get these boats through sposors but that is exactly what they are suppose to do(they are working for the anglers)anyone who thinks that their payouts are a joke are totally out of their minds. There is no denying that NBAA has great paybacks and are one of the best trails out there. This type of tournament will have more anglers fishing for the longrun to try to get into the classic. The only problem with NBAA is there are to many tournaments and that keeps the numbers down on the otherhand there are more choices for the anglers.

BBT is also a tournament circuit designed for the classic. Although there is no boat you can win $2000 for first at the classic. There payout is somewhat less than NBAAs but is approx. 90% throughout the classic. Also will hold the boats due to the fact it has a classic and has alot of prizes to giveaway to the less fortunate anglers like myself that dont get into the money very often.

ROI is designed for the right here right now angler, no classic but just about 100% payout at the ramp. This is good for the top 5 or 8 anglers in that area or lake. The rest just wont fish due to the fact that they dont have a chance to win anything or a chance to go to a classic. This will always keep the numbers down.

BFL is designed for the championship also. 70% at the ramp but big dividends at the championship. Only problem with them is that they only have tourneys on the east side of the state and small mouth, Which will limit numbers.

LakeDrive is for both, I cant say enough about them. Payback is like 90% at the ramp and at the classic it pays $12000 for first,yes thats right $12000 with only 3 tourneys to fish to make the classic. There again thats about 1000% payback total. They have the numbers, the payback, and they know how to put on the best tournaments in Michigan.

I think putting on a big tournament with 100% payback is in the best interest of the anglers but I dont think it will happen. It will be hard pressed to get 50 boats let alone 150. As someone said earlier, to many tournaments with to many options and most everyone is done fishing by late Sept. Good Luck With That.

[JohnBoy]

! I don't think lakedrive had to spend to much of his time to get AL&BOBS to pay 3 big bass prize's of $1000 each and that doesn't even come out of your entry? why would jeff at lake drive do that,he must be crazy right??? no he's a tournament fisherman himself...thats why.......think if those other trails got someone to give them a $1000 for big bass,think that u would see the $1000.....i can almost tell 1000% NO, u would see $500 and not know any wiser if even that!!!!!!

Just a clarification, Big bass is only 500$ per tournament paid by the sponsor and everyone can purchase a ticket when they sign up for $5 and that goes toward big bass. The ticket was for a thompson center muzzle loader in the past to be drawn out at the end of the day. The total big bass pots are over $1000 when its all said and done. So to be correct you do donate $5 toward big bass.

[gr@ssmonkey]

some people just have a way with words :)nicely said johnboy

[senkoluvr]

Grassmonkey I see on the ROI "website" You did well in the tournaments! How much did you make? How much did you spend? What Do you think one of the top guys in the BBT maid How much did they spend? Who came out on top?

My whole point is no one will run a good tournament for free! Not for long anyway. If we all get behind 1 or 2 or 3 tournaments they will grow. I don't care if it is ROI, BBT, NBAA, SHoreline, Or the RNFL (Red neck Fishing League) I just want to see more than Lake Drive pay out big! # tournaments a year that pay good is not enough for me.

The problem with a "NEW" tournament is everyone is in the wait and see mod and from the 1st year performance of ROI it looks like it will be a wait and see year for them again..... I see all kind of we have this and we will have that but it is all just talk when will we see some guarantees on paper? It seems that every post you go to The ROI crew has a "NEW" plan and it is differant than the last post that they have put up....

Why don't you think there is a tournament out there that is doing the 100% payback deal it is not a new concept, Even the Big Boys in B.A.S.S female dog about the pay back But they know that some one has to put it all together, it won't happen on its own it takes alot of work. Work that is not free. I know I don't work for free and I am sure none of you guys do. What if your boss came to you and said I am cutting your pay so I can give our customers a better price, You all would say BS!

[djkimmel]

Please keep it impersonal and about the topic, not the people.

Some people want to fish smaller tournament and some people want to fish bigger tournaments. Some people want to fish close to home and some people like to fish farther away.

Some people like team. Some people like draw or pro-am. Some people even like individual.

Some people like one or two lakes. Some people like a lot of variety of locations. Some people like established circuits. Some people like something new.

Times change and what people want changes too. No one is going to force other people to fish what they don't want to. Some of them will just get together and start something new to meet a real or perceived need. I don't think any of us can change that and don't see much value in debating what is inevitable. I say inevitable because it has come to pass.

There will be new circuits that come and go always. Some will get big for a while and some won't. It's actually been that way for over 20 years. US Bass. Western Bass. TNT. TMTS. Anglers Choice. That old scholarship series. Military Bass. ABC. So many others. If you want to run a successful circuit, find out what enough people want and then give that to them. Don't worry that you won't meet everyones' needs. That just isn't possible.