Ashamed

[frogman]

Had the Triton out this weekend on wixom and sanford, nabbed a few gills and one lone crappie, but I was ashamed to witness the brazen lack of respect for our fishing regs.  exhibited by some of my fellow bass loving enthusiasts.  I made a point to motor up to several of these "sportsman" and interrupted their jignpig, senko, and spinnerbait rigged casts to remind them the season is not open, most just shrugged their shoulders and kept on casting.   What a terrible message we send to the rest of the fishing community -- regardless of what you may think of the law - it is the law, and many of you have the audacity to "brag" about your illegal conquests on this website.  Sorry Dan, I did read your note on this subject but I had to get this off my chest.

[McCarter]

 frogman,

I can appreciate your concern for our fishing regulations.? But please do not voice your opinions in a hostile manner on this website.? This isnt that kind of forum and Im sure no one here wants it to turn into that kind of forum.? Maybe some of us are guilty of breaking the law and fishing for bass in the off season.? But it is not up to you to police Michigan waters unless you are employed to do so by the state.? If you see someone on the water that you believe is breaking the law, i would suggest leaving them well alone and use this number to call the DNR rather than confronting them yourself.

8002927800 ( sorry about that, this is the correct # )

This is the R.A.P. ( report all poachers ) line.

[yukonjack2]

poorboy -

well said, I concur completely! As much as it does set a bad example for everyone else out there, especially kids, I don't think you should approach them on tour own.  Could you post the correct phone #, as there are too many #'s in the last post!

Jack

[MBell]

Agree with the replys, it is illlegal to target bass but it's not you job to enforce the laws.  Just report it to the listed number or local dnr.  You can't go around 'interrupting" people fishing just because you think they may be breaking the law it's not your place to do so.  I don't see any reason why the sesson isn't open to catch and release right now other than law enforcement.  Not trying to pile on, just hit a nerve with me.
-Matt 

[djkimmel]

We all know this is a touchy subject.

We all know that some do not believe a season is necessary and some do.

We all know that as long as you can legally fish on the same water legally for some fish while another fish is closed, if you are in a bass boat in particular, many will view you suspiciously regardless of how you are fishing, or what you are fishing for.

I believe in making life simpler for everyone, so unless we prove we need a closed bass season, I will continue to work for a more liberal season so we can all go out, fish for what we want, enjoy ourselves and get along. Having a closed season that is unnecessary causes unnecessary conflict and withholds outdoor activities that anglers could be enjoying. But...

for now, there still is a closed season, and will be for at least two years, most likely longer. As I've said, we all make personal choices about whether we honor the regulation or not. I want to make sure any consequences coming from choices are also personal. I definitely don't want to be asked to provide evidence on any member's actions - one reason I've asked for no more bass fishing reports on closed waters.

It's okay to state personal opinions on this forum, but realize that others may have the opposite opinion too. This just happens to be an issue where the lines are already fairly well drawn and known, and debate will most likely turn to argument and strong emotions. It may or may not change some minds, but it will definitely sour some members to other members.

I have not been outspoken about not having conflict because I don?t want debate and opinions ? I just want it to be handled in a way that does not turn anglers away. We really need all the opinions in one place and we all need to hear them to fully understand issues. It would be boring and possibly a loss of knowledge and clarity if we end up with only anglers who all believe the same exact things. I believe in diversity, but I feel true diversity is in individual values and opinions, not color or race. We are all completely unique individuals.

Try to keep comments limited to your opinion without pointing out what this person or that person is doing. We all know already what is going on, and as soon as you point at someone, that someone(s) will feel the need to defend him or herself. That's how these things get ugly without usually changing anything. Just stating your opinion will get everyone thinking without putting anyone on the defensive.

I ask please that people not jump to any conclusions immediately about someone else; sometimes they are doing what you think they and sometimes they aren't. I ask that you lead by example. That often does more in the long run than any confrontation or public debate.

During my attempts to change attitudes while preparing for the bass season meetings, I sometimes put people on the defensive so fast there was little chance afterwards to get them to listen to any reason - they were too busy 'counterattacking' to actually listen to anything I had to say with an open mind. Many times, I had not desire to do this, but written comments on the Internet are easy to misinterpret.

You can always choose to call the RAP line if you see laws being. I don't plan on turning in any of my fellow bass anglers unless I see them keeping fish out of season, but I am trying set an example by not bass fishing until the opener. I haven?t been fishing yet only due to various goings on, but when I do go out, I will be sticking with panfish, dogfish, walleye/pike on open waters, things like that, but depending on where I?m fishing, I may catch some bass incidentally and on some waters, I will probably be viewed as a lawbreaker anyway because I happen to own a bass boat.

I'm not going to tell other anglers what to do. I just hope that we can minimize preseason conflicts so when we do talk about the possibility of expanding the season, if that opportunity presents itself, that we are all cordial enough to still listen to reason. Also, so we don?t hurt our chances to liberalize if the opportunity presents itself because of actions of others ? real or perceived.

I?m leaving this thread open, but please think about things carefully before you choose to post. I know some of you are really bothered by people breaking any law, and/or because you are worried they may hurt our chances to keep the season or add to it. I also know some of you do not believe in the necessity of a season at all and don?t feel the need to honor it. We all know this already, so think about whether you are adding to the issue in a mature and intelligent manner verses beating a dead horse before posting. I will not be the judge of that determination either. Your opinions are every bit as valid as mine and I?ve been wrong before. I?m not passing any judgment on already posted comments either.

My main concern is to keep all of you coming back here so we can learn from each other, and have a forum where news and information important to all of us can be seen and known by as many anglers as possible. We all need to be more involved in our outdoors to keep it and just being aware of what is going on is a huge step in the right direction. I like and need every one of you members and readers regardless of whether we agree on every single thing or not. Thanks.

[frogman]

Appreciate the replies, which confirm what I had suspected -- this forum isn't for me.   Didn't intend on being a divisive member,  my ethics just don't mesh with many members of this forum. To all members: enjoy the upcoming bass season!  To Dan Kimmel, your post detailing last years TopBass tourney on Houghton Lake was the best "bass story" I've ever read!

To the blatant lawbreakers -  How could I ever be comfortable fishing against you in a tourney? - oh, it's not the same, yea right.

[djkimmel]

frogman, please do not leave. The only way to change anything is to keep at it. I value every member's opinions. If you leave, your's will not be heard again.

There will always be things some of us disagree on, but we still need to work together for the overall common good. There are as many members on this forum who feel the same way you do about things - enough that you can find friends and enjoy your time here.

Leaving is not the answer. You will still find plenty to read here and participate in - I promise. The whole point of a forum is to bring a diversity of anglers together and learn from each. As I said, some change takes longer, but change only comes about with a little effort. Please consider that.

There is no such thing as a forum where everyone agrees with each other 100% - that does not happen in the human experience, but this can be a forum where we all can learn from each other constantly and make the overall picture a much better one in the long run.

[Revtro]

Dear all GLB members,
First, let me say this this forum is filled with fine gentlemen and sportsmen (including the ladies who participate).  It has been an honor and privilege to get to know some of the finest fishermen and sportsmen that can be found anywhere.  Never before have I met so many genuinely nice guys (and gals) who exhibit such an extraordinary high level of decency, fellowship, hospitality, and ethics. 

If you take a good look at the posts below, no one is advocating illegal fishing.  Instead, every member that's posted has advocated for mutual respect for their fellow fishermen and for a clean and "drama free" forum here at GLB.  However, there will always be those who will misread things due to their own personal views.  It's just a fact of life.  So I would encourage all of us to resist the temptation to respond to Frogman's last post in a hostile manner.  Although his opinions and judgments about the ethics of GLB members may be offensive to some of us who place a high priority on ethical issues, let's all realize wrong judgments are just that... wrong judgments. 

I'm sure Frogman isn't a bad guy.  He has an opinion and is entitled to it even though many, if not most of us, feel it is a wrong one.  (Evidently that opinion is that we're not ethical people here at GLB)  So let's not argue with him about this.  Let's show him what respect is all about by treating him the right way. 

Hopefully Frogman, you'll see that there are many wonderful individuals on this site who are all about "doing the right thing".  Keep in mind though that rarely do all agree on what the "right thing" is.  All we can do is our best to personally deal with our own ethical stances and hope that those around us will be respectful of our opinions, just as we need to respect Frogman's.

Again, I am honored to know all of you.  You have been a most helpful and accepting group of people.  Your generosity and friendly attitudes have caused me to want to give back to the members of GLB whenever I can by posting whenever I feel I have anything helpful to say.  This is the finest fishing forum I have ever seen.  It may not be the biggest in the fishing world, but it is filled with the biggest hearts.  Thanks to all of you who help making fishing more fun for me and my family.  Can't wait to meet more of you at the swap meet if you can make it.  God Bless!

[dhuff]

There are all kinds of ways of looking at a subject such as this.  Everyone is deifferent and most opinions will differ just the same.  Like most others said that is not your place to go up to someone out there and try and take the law into your own hands.  Just contact the proper offices and report if if you do not like it.  However, it seems your view on it is very set in stone to people breaking the law.  All I am going to ask is have you ever went over the speed limit?  If you reply yes then that means you too have broken the law.  Did anyone follow you to the next stop and say anything?  How many times have you gone over the speed limit?  If more than once then maybe you should re think how you are so ashamed of them for bass fishing.  If you answer NO to the question of ever going over the speed limit then all I have to say is that you are a better man than me.  I am not trying to slam you all I am saying is that when you get that ashamed or mad or however you are looking at it maybe you should relax and look at other things.  Now I am not saying yes it is alright by any means.  I am saying that unless it is a life and death matter than the proper authorities should of been contacted rather than you doing it first hand.  But if that's how some want to handle it then they should stop 95% of all drivers and give them a piece of there mind as well.  Not meaning to sound like I am slamming anyone just trying to get a point across.

[McCarter]

Well........

I guess let me first start by apologizing to everyone.  In no way did i intend to offend frogman, or to push him away from this board.  My intentions were only to make him and everyone aware that militious posts are not welcome here.  I think everyone has done a outfreakingstanding job of keeping it clean, friendly, informative, and educational which is not easy to do on any forum. 

I see that frogman has cancled his membership to this board and that makes me wonder.  I hope i did not offend him in anyway.  I was merely suggesting he let the proper authorities handle any situation he may encounter on or off the water that he deemed to be illegal.  You never know who you might run into out there.  You go trying to police the wrong guy or guys and it can get ugly real quick.

I am guilty of breaking some laws in my day.  More than i care to remember.  I try to be good but some times its just too hard.  But i can see the error of my ways and vow to not break anymore laws ( well, maybe just the speed limit ) for the rest of the off season.  Frogman did have a good point in there, i think he just came across the wrong way.  I can see where people would be upset at others for fishing out of season.  especially the guy who worked so hard to get our season extended.  I dont want to make anyone mad.  I thought my reply might have calmed the whole situation down before it got out of hand, but perhaps i was just fueling the fire.

So again, i am sorry.  I wish now that i had not even been involved in the situation.  i hope frogman calms down and signs back up.  I hate to see anyone take offense, especially to something i post.  I would like to think this forum is 'for everyone'.  we have such a good group of people here.  141 members and everyday until now has run as smooth as it possibly can.  Thats a true testament to the fine character of our members.  Keep up the good work guys and gals, and i will try not to chase anymore members away.

Lt Dan, Im sorry for causing a problem.  It was not my intention. 

PoorBoy himself

[cameraguy]

I think that Frogman made some very good points although I don't think going out of one's way to confront other anglers is a good idea.  His best point was probably this, "...the brazen lack of respect for our fishing regs...and many of you have the audacity to "brag" about your illegal conquests on this website." 

Fish the way you want, but to flaunt the fact that you are disobeying the law is just not very smart.  This is a PUBLIC forum.  Anybody can read it.  To put Dan is a position to have to warn members about this is inexcusable. 

Most of you know the ungodly hours Dan has devoted to the regulation changes.  Why would you want to even take the slightest chance of ruining his reputation by posting your out-of-season bass fishing exploits on his forum?  Did I mention that it's a PUBLIC forum that lots of people read, including the DNR?  Maybe post about the bass fishing opportunities that lie just outside Michigan borders like Indiana and Ohio...or talk about where we might fish on opening day, but please if you feel you just have to fish for bass out-of-season in Michigan and feel the urge to tell someone else, try an e-mail, PM, or phone call. 

[cwinsiii]

I agree with everything Cameraguy just posted but was thinking on how to word it.

[Dan]

I'll be the first to admit to being a sinner, but my salvation is rationale thought. A rule a rule doesn't fly with me because of all the logical exceptions, ie. speed law violations. None of us target bass for meat, and in terms of promoting the sport, this group is on a plane all its own. Poorboy you simply beat me to the punch. I too, would have stepped up as you graciously did to make a second post and I think that is a testament to the quality of the folks on this forum. One thing I've learned is you can't please all the people all the time. I have been on a number of forums and this is by far the best and the one I have been on the longest. Checking it out is one of the first things I do during my free time. My two cents, it's frogman's loss. Has he made more than that one post? I don't recall. However, Kermit has always been a personal favorite of mine and I'm sure after a mile in frogman's flippers we could see each other as friends. Never gave it much of a chance.

[Revtro]

Poorboy, don't be so hard on yourself.  I'm pretty sure that Frogman had an axe to grind before your post and I truly don't think you were out of line.  Nor do I think you handled it wrong.  In my experience with people (especially with what I do for a living), I have found that some people are gonna get their knickers in a twist no matter how you handle a situation.  In other words, there will be people that no matter how diplomatic or friendly you are about a situation, will choose to take offense because they already have a bee in their bonnet.... so there's nothing you really can do about it.  (Hey, do I get props for 3 cliche's in one paragraph?) 

So it's only my personal opinion, but you have nothing to apologize for in my view.  Your comments didn't push Frogman away, he had one foot out the door already.  It's ok.  You can't keep everyone happy.  This is the kindest and friendliest fishing forum around and you Poorboy are big part of why it is so.  So if some guys can't see that and end up deciding to go elsewhere, it's ok. 

I deal with this as a pastor all the time.  There are some folks that even though they're great people, will come into a situation with preconceived notions or agendas that are incompatible with ours and won't end up sticking around.  I used to get very hurt or upsted when people would up and leave, but now I'm used to it and I see that it's just part of human nature for some folks.  So I would encourage you and Lt. Dan both not to take it too hard when someone bolts.  It's life.  And I agree with Dan...sadly, it's Frogman's loss.  It's on him Poorboy...not you. 

Now... LET'S GO FISHIN'!

------------------- Amendment--------------------
Now that Frogman has decided to return, I can see that my comments about him having an axe to grind were probably wrong.  Perhaps it was just the heat of the moment and nothing more.  I'm very glad to see him back and would like to extend to him a very warm welcome back.  Stuff happens.  Glad to see Frogman's willing to give GLB another chance. 

[djkimmel]

I have little to add to the discussion (may seem inaccurate if you read on, I know). What I would like to add for sure #1 is ultimately, I have the final say over what gets left on the forums, who gets to stay a member and what gets edited, or not edited. So I would say anyone can blame me if I don't remove something they are unhappy about. I try walk a line between diverse comments, opinions and views, and keeping the forum from heading the way some people tell me is inevitable for every bass fishing forum they've ever seen. It really would be boring if everything completely went one way all the time, but I no I do not enjoy attacks and belittling posts. I don't think I'm alone there.

I think about all of this every time I post something about people reading and how I'd like people to act. I try to judge how I'm doing by how you all interact and the comments you provide to me.

I do my best to consider everything carefully before I act, if I act at all. I said above and it is important enough to repeat - I like and need every member on this forum. You all provide your important part.

I'm disappointed I did not talk frogman into staying. I don't like to give up on anyone. He may read all of this and take it personally. I'm leaving it because these are all of your opinions and we should be able to handle reading them without quitting. There's too much good on this forum to let one particular well-hashed topic override that. Plus, if you really want to affect change, you have to deal with people. You can't affect change without interacting. To me, the ultimate frustration is to want change and do nothing towards the goal except think about it to myself.

It's tough to have the feeling everyone is against you. It is also tough to make an unfair statement, albeit without really meaning to, that makes it look like your are washing everyone with the same brush. Neither of these issues resolves well. Happens too often on Internet forums. Most often, in the heat of the moment ? sometimes stopping a bit ? taking a time out is a good thing ? before deciding a course of action. During the hottest parts of the bass season debates on various forums, I started making myself wait sometimes two days before I responded so my response would hopefully be more coherent and I also chose to not respond to every single post. It was chewing up a ton of my time and not having the desired affect.

I really do feel most of you try hard to be different here. I don't expect any of us to be perfect all of the time either. Rev keeps reminding us we are human basically. I think patience and tolerance for imperfections are important (along with forgiveness). I've used the 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' (or variations) many times. One of my goals in life is to keep suggesting we spend way more time fixing each of our individual imperfections more than everyone else's. It's hard to face our own foibles, so we tend to concentrate often on others. But it probably is more realistic to fix our own imperfections than ever fix many others.

I really believe that if everyone decided to spend the bulk of their personal effort treating others as they would like to be treated, leading by example, being a good citizen, many problems could be lessened much more than if we spend our personal time trying to fix everyone else (I'm guilty too, believe me). Enough people start concentrating on themselves, and the holdouts end up sticking out like sore thumbs. They ostracize themselves I think.

For my other topic (#2) - please see the thread - MDNR respect under general discussions. Thanks.

[McCarter]

Frogman did make one really good point that stuck out to me and really hit home.  When he said 'To the blatant lawbreakers -  How could I ever be comfortable fishing against you in a tourney? - oh, it's not the same, yea right.'

I know guys that would fish on LSC before the season changes ( last year and years past ) and i always thought that was kinda unfair to us other guys who only fished the CIR lakes starting April 1st, especially when the tournament rolled around.  They had already been out there for a month or better and had a better grip on what was going on.

I have always kept my fishing to the CIR lakes in the spring.  I still have never been on LSC before the opener.  I get my butt whomped on every year out there in the first ABA tournament cuz it takes me a couple hours to find some decent fish. 

Im rambling, but i think i am close to something that may or may not resemble the point i am trying to make.

I have tried to follow the rules in the past, and this post kinda pointed out the fact that I am breaking the rules.  I dont want anyone to view me as a cheater, or someone who will take those kind of risks to gain an upper hand on my competition.  More or less, i just needed to fish on Kent Lake.  I love that lake like a brother.  This is the time to be out there for the early spring smallmouth bite.  I am used to fishing it this time of year.  I suppose i didnt consider all the facts before throwing caution to the wind and just going fishing.  I certainly didnt want to put Dan in a position by posting a fishinf report.  I just didnt put 2 and 2 together and realize that it would be something that would make us look bad.

To each his/her own.  I would never look down on another angler for fishing out of season if it was catch and release.  Guys do it, i did it.  Who am i to judge anyone?   But as i stated in an earlier post, i am not doing it anymore.  So many things were brought up in this topic, and i dont want to be a contributing factor to any of them.  You will see my boat out on Kent lake a few more times, but i assure i will not be fishing.  Unless i take the neices and nephews out with worms and bobbers for some panfish.  No sir, i will be out there scouting  for beds.  As long as its legal.  I will check on that. 

At the end of the day, reputation is all you have.  That and a 12 pack of Miller Lite.  I dont want people to look at me and think i am a cheater, or a dishonest guy.  I have cleansed the demons. 

More than anything, i am doing this for Lt Dan.  I know how hard he worked to get us more of a legal season.  How dare i take that for granted?  And i again apologize to him for putting him in this situation. 

As i said before, frogman had some excellent points.  I just think he could have made those points without being so harsh.  But i thank him for making them becuase it made me realize that some people were offended by my actions.  I know i cant make everyone happy all the time, but i sure as hell can try.  Im always working to be the best PoorBoy i can be, and sometimes I need a little reminding.  I wish he would come back.  If he doesnt, oh well.  But i think we need people like him here as well.  I have been guilty of making some pretty bad posts in my day.  And i wasnt trying to get down on him for his post, but just remind him to keep it friendly.  Any issue can be resolved in a mature manner.  And i know we have all bit our tongues, or keyboards at one time or another after reading something that we did not agree with.  But we do it becuase no matter what, we respect each other.  Hell, i havant even met but a couple of you guys but i feel like ive known all of you for years.  I have said it before, your my kinda people.

I think there may have been a shorter route to say what i had to say here, but its early and i havent had my Mt Dew yet.  SO sorry for the long post. 

PoorBoy himself ( new and improved for 2006 )

[Revtro]

Well said Poorboy.  You're a real gentleman.  Nicely done!

[dcain]

All,

In response to Frogman I am glad he brought this up. This weekend I got the Stratos out on Lake St.Clair and saw a few people fishing for bass. It was obvious what they were doing whether you think it is right or wrong.

The DNR showed up and was watching what was going on. Coming from a state that doesn't have a season I personally don't agree with the season. However I also do agree that a catch and release during pre-spawn and spawn is the right way to go.

The law we have is what we have and if we ever want to get it changed I feel we need to follow it as law abiding anglers. This would improve our image therefore giving more creditability for a possible law change.

The tought of catch and release in the south is being strongly considered as well as banning tournaments in July and August. The dilema is it gets so hot and the fish go so deep they get the benz when pulled to the surface from deep water.

Dean

[djkimmel]

There's never a shortage of issues surrounding ethics and what is good for the bass. I think, because overal we all care so much about and enjoy our sport, some issues can heat up a little at times, but this has been a good learning thread. I appreciate the thought, candor and effort very much shown here.

I'm not upset or mad at anyone. I'm working my way through these things just like everyone else.

I don't think it is so easy to sway one way or another when trying decide what someone means when they post something, that the hot issues sometimes need a step back for a bit before posting. I still don't do this enough. It really is the passion for the sport that drives me. Sometimes the passion overwhelms the reason, but this forum continues to impress me with the way things don't deteriorate into name-calling and nothing else when the going gets tough. THANKS!

Someone earlier said lets go fishing! Sounds good to me. (First I better get ready for the TBF meeting and get my trailer spruced up for the highway...)

[DennisB.]

I too have been guilty in past years of this. I have really made the decision a few years ago to not target bass out of season. However this used to be easier with Kent to go to from the first of April until the regular season opened, This year has been hard on me but I have only targeted Crappie and have found a love for the fish that I had forgotten about. The season change is a good thing for the state until we can go without a season, but I question wether or not that will ever happen. Michigan is far more concerned with other species to ever let us fish for bass year round. they mirror this in the way the hunting season is set up, it revolves around the Whitetail they way the fishing revolves around Walleye and Steelhead. Nothing confirms this more than the drop shotting issue. Both changes are great for us and it's a very exciting time to be a Michigan Bass fisherman. I, like most would hate to see us lose it all due to a few "Blatant lawbreakers" but I am afraid that that is likely. I was on belleville this past Saturday and witnessed the same violations and it's not likely to change unless the mindset is changed.

We have all heard it before " We are defined by our actions as sportsman by what we do in the absence of an audience"

Now if they could just come up with a patch for bass fishing.