The increasing costs of Tournament fishing

[Durand Dan]

Quite a few years ago there was this guy that would show up to every tournament on Cass Lake.  He and his partner would fish out of this crappy looking 18 foot jon boat.  He would whoop everyones butt out there.  I often wonder what ever happened to that guy.  He would also show up to Kent and do the same.  My point is that the boat doesn't make the angler........a weigh in bag with a limit of fish does.  I think I am quoting someone from a previous post on this subject.  Any way this is a great topic.  

It also follows my view point on entry fees.  My view is that no inland lake should have a $100 plus entry fee.  On big water.........yes.  That has always been the norm.  But people still pay $100 plus for inland lake tournaments.  So I may be the "Lone Ranger" on this subject that feels that way.  It used to be many years ago that everything on big water was $100.  Inland lake Tournaments were in the 50 to 75 dollar range.  Week nite NBAA is $40 a boat roughly.  Tuesday Nite Bellevilles are $50 a boat.  Weekend NBAA One on One I think was $40 a guy last year....maybe $60.  Don't remember.  

BD          

I agree 100% on inland tournament fees. $50 to $75 should be the limit. The NBAA one on one's are a great deal for the tournament minded fisherman who likes to fish alone(or doesn't have any friends .)
DD

[Skulley]

Like you and I..................


BD         

[SethV]

I think the high cost of boats & equipment might discourage new anglers from getting into tx fishing.  As much as I love my boat, there is no way I would take on a boat payment - its just not worth it.  My first boat was an old (1984) Pantera with a 150 that would run most of the time.      Boats like that do GREAT on inland water - no need to spend big $$ unless you can afford it.  Now, for the big water - I do think the boat does give you an advantage and - sad but true - it can be dangerous to run around out there in an older boat with less floatation / safety.

[JohnBoy]

 I think this is probably the first time ebond and I agree on something. Not to say hes wrong or right all the time, we just have different opinions.

My thoughts have always been that the weeknight 3 to 4 hour tournaments should be lower and the 8 hour tournaments should be at least $100 no matter where they are held. If your putting in a full day of tournament fishing on any given lake the reward should be higher. I don't think inland lakes or Lk StClair or Lk Erie or Lk Michigan has anything to do with entree fees it should be whether they are a weekend or weeknight tournament. Most people are going to put in alot more time prefishing, hotels, gas, etc for a weekend tournament no matter where it is being held compared to a weeknight tournament. Look down south most of the tournaments held down there are $150 to $300 for entree fees for there weekend tournaments.

The weeknight tournaments are meant for those that have other financial obligations, the working mans league, and the weekend tournaments are for the little more serious anglers and are alot more competitive.

[Durand Dan]

Tournament Profitability and Cost

Many conservative assumptions were used to simplify this analysis.

Tournaments paybacks are assumed to be 80% of the total entry fees. The fuel cost to tow a boat to the lake and operate the boat (including outboard oil) is estimated at $40 per day, based on a location roughly 30 miles from home, and roughly 30 minutes of outboard operation. There are no additional costs associated with owning the truck and boat, or other assorted expenses, such as membership fees, tackle, lodging, etc.

Here are some examples of the profitability of fishing tournaments with various entry fees.

$40 entry fee	X 25 entries =	$1000 total entry fees
$40 expense	X 25 boats =	$1000 added expenses
$80 spent	X 25 entries =	$2000 spent
		$800 payback
		60% net loss
/	/	/
$80 entry fee	X 25 entries =	$2000 total entry fees
$40 expense	X 25 boats =	$1000 added expenses
$120 spent	X 25 entries =	$3000 spent
		$1600 payback
		47% net loss
/	/	/
$120 entry fee	X 25 entries =	$3000 total entry fees
$40 expense	X 25 boats =	$1000 added expenses
$160 spent	X 25 entries =	$4000 spent
		$2400 payback
		40% net loss

Therefore, higher entry fee tournaments are more profitable, or, more accurately, less unprofitable, when considered on a individual or daily basis.

Here are some examples of average expenses and winnings and the average costs of 24 days of fishing, including practice days, for tournaments with various entry fees.

12 events X $80	($40 entry + $40 expense) =	$960 tournaments
12 practice days	@ $40 per day=	$480 added expenses
average winnings	@ $32 per team ($800/25) X 12 =	$384 avg annual winnings
/	/	$1056 avg annual loss
/	/	/
8 events X $120	($80 entry + $40 expense) =	$960 tournaments
16 practice days	@ $40 per day=	$640 added expenses
average winnings	@ $64 per team ($1600/25) X 8 =	$512 avg annual winnings
/	/	$1088 avg annual loss
/	/	/
6 events X $160	($120 entry + $40 expense) =	$960 tournaments
18 practice days	@ $40 per day=	$720 added expenses
average winnings	@ $96 per team ($2400/25) X 6 =	$576 avg annual winnings
/	/	$1104 avg annual loss
/	/	/

Therefore, higher entry fee tournaments allow more practice time with roughly the same total cost as lower entry fee tournaments.

The total cost of tournament fishing has less to do with entry fees, and more to do with the daily cost of fishing, boat and truck expenses, lake location and size, miscellaneous expenses, and winnings. Regardless of other expenses, I prefer higher entry fees for the opportunity for bigger winnings.

Unless a tournament angler has a free boat and truck, and does not need to practice, and wins money on a regular basis to cover fuel costs and entry fees, he will almost never earn a profit! Any way you look at it, tournament fishing is fun, and expensive.

Bond

Those are great figures if your a tournament director. But bottom line. As an angler if I can spend $40 and have the opportunity to realize winnings of $400 to $500, I'm good with that.

[fish hound]

All that said I hope to be the owner of a 2003 193 Champ w/200 VMAX on Monday so keep your fingers crossed for a brother!

H*LL yeah, buy used!  And if you're willing to drive out of state all the better deal you'll get.  There's a Champ in TX I'd love to have, just can't justify having two of the same rig.

but on the overall topic of what it takes to be competitive in tx's, it takes confidence, not a nice boat.  You can make money out of a 14' Sea Nymph with a 9hp, a 18' war eagle with a 105 jet, or a 202 ChampioN with a 225EFI.  It's a problem in society that has kids thinking they need the newest baddest rig out there to compete.  I think of it this way, a .22 will make you just as dead as .416 Rigby.
My $.02.

Matt

[dartag]

with all the new circuts and existing ones it will be interesting to see boat counts this year.  with NBAA, KLBA, ROI, BBLC, HVBA, Chiller Thriller I counted 39 events on Kent lake this year.  Pontiac is another lake with a lot of events also. 

[Skulley]

Lets face it.............some of these lakes are going to get "pounded" this year!!!!         


BD           

[macbass]

that is just like jordan lake at lake odessa.  last year there were 62 tournaments on this body of water that is only 375 acres  and it has been this way for a long time and it just keeps producing fish....but te fish must know evey bait and everybody in the boat by name...but i am still waiting for it to shut down and turn into the dead sea...

[Durand Dan]

As an angler if I can spend $40 and have the opportunity to realize winnings of $400 to $500, I'm good with that.

For $40 you can go to lake and fish for a day. You can't win any money without paying the entry fee, in addition!

Those are great figures if your a tournament director.

You may want to trim the quoted material when you quote someone. Who wants to see that entire report more than once?

Please explain how the analysis helps tournament directors. I did the analysis, and I'm a director. Thanks.

The analysis had absolutely no value to me. So I assumed it must have had value to someone, maybe directors. And if you read between the lines (which I'm astonished you didn't) you would have realized the $40 I alluded to was the tournament fee.
As far as trimming the quoted material, I replied to facts stated.

[Skulley]

When going to a tournament on an inland lake with an entry fee or lets say $50, I don't spend another $50 for any other expenses.  I will probably use the gas I already have in the boat which is usually about a half a tank or so.  Then there is gas in the truck.  Which is probably over half a tank.  So essentially I may spend a total of $50 because I already spent the money to fill the boat or truck on another trip.  Chances are I spent the money in the truck going to my 40 hour a week job.  That is why my reasoning of spending $100 plus for an inland lake tournament is what it is. 

On the subject within this post of lakes getting "pounded" the way they do..........it is only a matter of time before they are effected by the pressure negatively.  We can only hope that will not be the case.

BD                 

[thedude]

i don't count expenses unless its an overnight stay or out of town trip.

i go fishing when i want to go fishing regardless of if there is a tournament or not.  if they outlawed tournaments, i would spend the same amount of money on expenses while "just fishing". The only local tournament expense is the entry fee/membership fee/dues.

[macbass]

i guess there is another way to look at the expense...this is a hobby for most of us we are not  doing this to make a living and if we were we wouldnt be fishing local tournaments....would the expenses be any more if were snowmobiling , quads,  motorcycles, horses or racing probably not because not everything is done in one area so there is drive time over night stays meals on the road, and obviously we try to do them as economically as possible. so tournaments have nothing to do with it because we are going to fish just to justify owning the equipment that we have  be it a tounament or not....

[thedude]

I'm not assuming that the boat and truck are free.

I'm saying that whatever it costs me to run my boat and truck for a day on the lake is money spent regardless of a tournament or not.  I bass fish because i love to bass fish, not because there are tournaments. Tournaments are an added bonus.

There is the cost of fishing and the cost of tournaments. The cost of fishing for most of us is probably a pretty static number as it is part of our everyday life. We go to the lake, we buy gas, tackle, rods whatever. Its recreation, hobby whatever you want it to be, but like i said, i would spend no less money on fishing related expenses if I did or did not participate in tournaments.  If i do a tournament, the only money i've gained or lost is the money i spent to enter the tournament.

if I was driving all over the place for BFL or opens - then yes, i would include those costs. But i'm driving to the same lakes i fish for fun - so my fishing expenses don't change when i do zero tournaments or 20. The only extra money i'm spending is on entry fees - so that is what it costs me to fish tournaments.

[Skulley]

The only extra money i'm spending is on entry fees - so that is what it costs me to fish tournaments.

This is what I am talking about.  After reading thedude's analysis, he put it pretty simply.  That is how I look at tournament fishing.  I bass fish because I love to bass fish.  Whether tournaments or not..........I would still go bass fishing.  The extra expense for me is tournaments.  That is why I can't see spending $100 plus on inland lake tournaments.  So for me I agree with the quote above.

BD           

[JohnBoy]

if I was driving all over the place for BFL or opens - then yes, i would include those costs. But i'm driving to the same lakes i fish for fun - so my fishing expenses don't change when i do zero tournaments or 20. The only extra money i'm spending is on entry fees - so that is what it costs me to fish tournaments.

[/quote]

I would still go bass fishing.  The extra expense for me is tournaments.  That is why I can't see spending $100 plus on inland lake tournaments.  So for me I agree with the quote above.

BD           
[/quote]

I guess Im just confused. If your fishing a lake you would go to anyway so the expense of travel doesnt count wouldnt you want to take that extra money and put it in that tournament to win more, since you are going there anyway. I guess I just look at it different. To each his own I guess. I still say weeknight cheap weekend expensive.

[River Rat]

I guess Im just confused. If your fishing a lake you would go to anyway so the expense of travel doesnt count wouldnt you want to take that extra money and put it in that tournament to win more, since you are going there anyway. I guess I just look at it different. To each his own I guess. I still say weeknight cheap weekend expensive.

Well, not every fishing trip to a lake revolves around tournaments for every individual.  I, like many others, enjoy fishing with our wives, girlfriends (probably not the same day as our wives), kids, brothers, dads, nieces, nephews, etc., that do not tournament fish and have no dang desire, yet we still love to spend a day on the water with them enjoying the sport.  I like to go to Dale Hollow to fish and visit family twice a year but do not make a point to schedule my trip around the tournament calendar for the BFL Mountain Div.

Also, was this post originally about whether or not we should fish a tournament for the payouts, or if we are already going to fish that lake, or was it about the outrageous costs of boats and equipment that some younger anglers think they need to incur to "compete" across the vast majority of our country?!  (Minus our big Great Lakes waters if you want/need to run 30 miles)

[oldjigger]

very good
let's get back on the subject

[Waterfoul]

I love bass fishing and I fish a LOT (ask anyone who knows me!!).  I've never spent a ton of money on the BOAT... the boat doesn't catch the fish.  I do however use premium gear (rods, reels, line, etc....).  I guarantee the gear in my boat is worth more than the boat itself.  BUT, it's taken me many, MANY years to gather all the gear I have. 

All that being said I'm in agreement with thedude.  I do not count things like gas or oil in my tournament expenses.  If I have time to fish a tournament, it means I have that same time to go fishing for fun.  In other words... if I wasn't fishing a tournament, I'd be fishing anyway.  If I do happen to pre-fish for a tournament (which I don't to a lot of for events on the west side of the state) I usually take someone who doesn't fish as much I do or someone who REALLY WANTS to go fishing but doesn't have the means.  So not only do I get to pre-fish the lake, but I get to spend time with someone who may not have had a chance to go fishing at all that day.  I love taking people fishing and do it as often as I can.  Some of you on this site have gotten phone calls from me asking if you want to head out, often at a moments notice!!

[ROI Outdoors]

Its all part of the territory - $70,000 or a $10,000 boat you still need a truck to pull the boat to the lake, that truck needs gas (and so does the boat - oil, ect.), once on the water you need rod-reel-line-lures-ect.  I think we can all agree that we fish because we enjoy and it and we do tourneys because they substantially increase that enjoyment and add the competitive nature to something we already have fun with.  No matter how you stack it tournaments cost money and that cost will continue to rise - fishing in general costs money and that cost will also continue to increase.  For anyone thinking the costs of tournament fishing is getting too high but stills goes out a couple of times a week you might want to look at the tax deductible aspect of it - you can't itemize a trip to Grand Traverse for a weekend of fun fishing but you can itemize your expenses on a trip to Grand Traverse for a weekend of fun fishing with a tournament on one of the days.  (PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT A CERTIFIED ACCOUNTANT and in no way trying to offer tax advise )

Unless you are sponsored angler fishing a pro circuit the chances of making any substantial profit are slim to none and I think the younger anglers have this perception that every Elite Series Pro is making 6+ figures a year; travel costs and entry fees exceed $100,000 a year and if you look at the payouts plus the sponsorship dollars there are only a handful of guys actually accumulating any amount of wealth.  Younger Anglers watch ESPN or WFN and see nothing but 225's or 250's decked out to the max so its only natural for them to want to gravitate towards the higher end equipment - when you add the fact that we are a society that finances everything without evaluating any of the potential risks increasing costs become inevitable.  Short of Dave Ramsey being your best friend the only way to truly know these perceptions are misguided are from personal experience or from listening to those who have been around the block a few thousand times.

The younger generations constant search for the biggest & baddest of everything is actually beneficial in way.  Somebody has to pay for the New-Overpriced stuff because if they didn't the manufacturers wouldn't really have any reason to innovative and improve the equipment we all need to use, less innovation would lead to a decrease in competition which would bring costs substantially higher than what we currently face.  The more the manufacturers push the envelope on their products to beat the competition the more competitive they will be with their pricing and incentives to the end consumer.  There are some guys that can afford the best stuff - if I was one of them I would most definitely go all out even if knew the "top of the line" had no effect on being in the "front of the line" when the checks are being handed out.  On the flip side if a guy can't afford the best stuff but is fooled into thinking that he has to have all the bells & whistles to even be competitive we share a responsibility to expose the truth and to dispose these notions - every angler that over extends themselves right of the bat is another entry fee lost to the tournament succubus.

On the topic of profit and loss in tournament fishing I think would be interesting to start to database that could actually allocate profit/loss of every tournament scenario - entry fee, memberships, travel costs, pre-fishing costs, time costs, winnings, ect.  If you throw in the Lake, date, conditions, # of boats, patterns, ect. - overtime you would be able to evaluate what tournaments and time frames provide the highest potential Return on all of your tournament investments.  This might take a little of the fun out of the experience but it sure would help put an end to the seemingly never ending payout/entry fee/circuit debates.

Tournament Turbo Tax 2010 available as an I-Phone App (The Dude - how much would writing that software cost???) Features include: GPS loaded maps, barometric pressure readings, weather conditions, water temp and depth snapshots.
Mike I just read your post while typing this essay, 2010 will be bringing a few West Michigan events that you will most definitely be pre-fishing for - JUNE 6TH Lake Drive you'll need at least a solid day or two to pick out 5 fish that the other 74 boats haven't already claimed.