no season on bass

[Got Fish??]

I always appreciate your opinions. But your missing my point. Go back and read the last three lines of my last post! I guess I'm just greedy. I want to keep all this great fishing to our selves. This state has one of the best smallmouth lakes in the country. To take the chance of ruining it, not willing to do so.Be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.

[thedude]

i would agree with you - however - our current closed seasons do not protect those fish. Great lakes smallies or often bedding well after the catch & keep opener. a mid-may through mid-june c&r season makes a heck of a lot more sense than the current regs - which as i mentioned only serve to make it easier on the DNR to keep track of out-of-season walleye violators on inland lakes and rivers.

[MadWags]

 

[Mike S.]

I grew up in Louisiana and Texas.  We were able to fish there all year long, and guess what, there was an over abundance of BIG fish, and never a problem with the spawn.  It does suck that we are getting screwed because of pike and walleye guys.  It's kinda like why we can't drop shot on Muskegon, White, and Mona Lakes.  The salmon run through them, and they don't want people snagging salmon.  I was told by an officer that that was why we can't drop shot.  The way your hook is on a ds rig would make it too easy to snag salmon.  Once again, penalized because of the ones who can't follow rules.

[Dan]

A recently posted study of the effects of fishing for spawning largemouth.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2010/03/bass-myth-exploded?cmpid=enews033110

[SethV]

I always appreciate your opinions. But your missing my point. Go back and read the last three lines of my last post! I guess I'm just greedy. I want to keep all this great fishing to our selves. This state has one of the best smallmouth lakes in the country. To take the chance of ruining it, not willing to do so.Be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.

So explain to me, exactly how would a tournament in March with 42 degree water "hurt" our bass fishing any more than it does in August, October or any other month?

Be careful what I wish for?  I wish to use my boat and fish tournaments any time there is liquid water - sure hope you are right and I "get my wish".

Seth

[MIBassKid]

If ruining the best smallmouth fishery in the world was their concern then I think that they would have done a little bit more on keeping out the carp. Having a closed season is a load of crap, not to be confused with carp! It's funny how everyone has a bunch of different reasons straight from a DNR officer themselves, and I'm not saying that they aren't true, but if the DNR actually had a concrete reason why we have a closed season wouldn't they be in agreeance? I just think that their priorities need to be reanalyzed and do what the majority of the population thinks is right. This is a democracy afterall isn't it?

[thedude]

I always appreciate your opinions. But your missing my point. Go back and read the last three lines of my last post! I guess I'm just greedy. I want to keep all this great fishing to our selves. This state has one of the best smallmouth lakes in the country. To take the chance of ruining it, not willing to do so.Be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.

So explain to me, exactly how would a tournament in March with 42 degree water "hurt" our bass fishing any more than it does in August, October or any other month?

Be careful what I wish for?  I wish to use my boat and fish tournaments any time there is liquid water - sure hope you are right and I "get my wish".


very good point.
how much stress does a bass feel riding in a livewell in 45-50 degree water compared to that 80-90 degree water that everyone has no issue whatsoever putting them into in august?
Seth

[djkimmel]

An example of why we are where we are (social management) - from the Michigan DNR Fisheries Research Report 1944 'Distribution and Population Dynamics of Smallmouth Bass in Anchor Bay, Lake St Clair' by W. C. Bryant and Kelley Smith (present Fisheries Division Chief) 1988 (I have the complete report).

"The most effective means of increasing yield, at least short-term, would involve changing the (St. Clair Detroit River system) bass season, which does not open until the third Saturday in June, 4 weeks later than anywhere else in Michigan. The late season opening unquestionable deletes the most effective period of bass exploitation. There is no scientific basis for deciding that Lake St. Clair bass need more spawning season protection than populations anywhere else in Michigan. Returning Lake St. Clair to the regular May 15 opener would be beneficial by making regulations uniform statewide. However, the present bass season opening is close to the season opener for Ontario waters of Lake St. Clair."

The next paragraph in FRR #1944 states the MDNR researchers however recommend no change in the regulations at that time "because of a general lack of public sentiment to alter their management."  In other words, if the MDNR thinks most anglers don't want the change they won't make the change even though there is no scientific reason for many bass regulations (social management). I believe the sentiment has shifted fairly strong the other way since that time and Michigan studies support this by showing a large number of anglers in favor of increased legal catch-and-release opportunities (FTR 2001-2, FTR 89-2, FTR 91-6 to name a few). Though, if you were to propose moving the opening day of Lake St. Clair back to Memorial weekend, many anglers would be afraid of a perceived risk and be against it (fear of change).

There too numerous studies to report over many decades showing there is no direct correlation between spawning numbers of bass and overall recruitment (new bass into the population that survive) including no affect shown of bass fishing during the spawn on the bass population. There are no studies that prove a negative impact on bass recruitment related to fishing during the spawn though a few biologists are trying to do so (and have for some time with no success).

Even Michigan Studies Show No Direct Correlation Between Spawning Numbers and Recruitment:  Studies in our own state support what the majority of biologists nationwide believe (demonstrated by 44 or 45 states having no closed statewide bass season), "Generally, there is no close relationship between the number of adult bass and the number of fingerling recruits they produce" (Latta 1974, 1975). "Only six adults per acre can produce excessive numbers of fingerlings" (Schrouder et al. 1989; Mraz 1964).

Please don't think I wish to hammer away at the MDNR. I like and respect many persons at the MDNR and owe them our thanks for help with the VHS virus situation most recently. Many state game and fisheries managers in many states fear the heat they may take from the public and government types when they propose or try to make changes. Change is very hard for many people. That's why FTR 91-6 (our Michigan 6 lakes catch and release study) ends by saying, "Fisheries Division policy on bass seasons should be reevaluated. Both biological and sociological factors should be considered."

[djkimmel]

Understand one thing up front. The more we talk about more tournaments during a longer season, the astronomically harder any lengthening of the season will be. Still too much local lake sentiment against anything that might lead to more tournaments on inland lakes. I personally like the idea of less tournament during the dead heat of summer and more in the cool water periods. But I'm not everybody...

[Durand Dan]

Understand one thing up front. The more we talk about more tournaments during a longer season, the astronomically harder any lengthening of the season will be. Still too much local lake sentiment against anything that might lead to more tournaments on inland lakes. I personally like the idea of less tournament during the dead heat of summer and more in the cool water periods. But I'm not everybody...

I think that statement is right on. At my advanced age  I know a lot of retirees and others that are fishermen and women. Many of these friends live on lakes and are members of associations. Even though they love Bass fishing and take part in it, one of their chief complaints is the sheer number of tournaments that take place. Then, of course, there are the proponents of all sports use that make up the bulk of lake residents which also see the weather limited season as a detriment to the sports they love (I know its sick!). Their voice is loud with representatives due mostly to their positions in business and the community. A completely open bass season would be a long, uphill, probably unsuccessful fight.

[mikesmiph]

If you never try, You'll always fail.

[djkimmel]

All I'm saying is it is easier to push the windmill in the same direction as the wind. A longer catch and release season is an actual possibility with some planning, care and hard work by some individuals. It will not be easy and involve many meetings, lots of writing and listening to a lot of people who have never read a study or talked to researchers tell you what they 'know' about bass biology, but it is getting more and more likely a possibility every year now. Maybe a 40 to 60% chance of success with all of the above.

Going about it in Michigan with any mention of wanting to hold more tournaments during an open season in the spring has about a 1% chance of success for someone who doesn't mind having a lot of people angry with him or her. I say 1% because few things are completely impossible.

Please remember that I have been attending public meetings, lake association meetings, town hall meetings, meetings with government officials at many levels, and the MDNR, and trying to convince people to rethink what they think they know on many, many Internet forums and other communication paths on this topic off and on for the better part of 27 years.

Getting anything done that involves significant change for a lot of people - the public, government, dnr, etc. - is much easier if you go into it with realistic expectations and a willingness to compromise. Because you will almost never get your way and you will always have to compromise. If you want to get anything at all.

We got what we have now only after over 20 years of hard work. It was not a clear and overwhelming victory. It was by the skin of our teeth really. To be effective in changing public policy and law, you have to be very realistic and honest about the present climate. There's no room for wasting time by confusing what we'd like with what is actually, reasonably attainable considering all known factors. Frustration over that is also a waste of valuable energy that can be put towards getting what we want.

Believe you me... I've been considering and living these factors since I spoke at my first public meeting as a scared, shy 18 year old boy who didn't know I was going to have get up in front of a bunch of angry people and tell them why I supported putting a public access on 'their' lake. No one else showed up for 'our' side so I figured someone better get up and say something for our side. After looking around the room, I realized it was me, or no one... I've been trying to figure out how to be more effective ever since. That had a lot to do with creating this web site, because we are all in it together and it is a lot easier at these meetings and in these issues when there's a bunch of us than when there's just one, lonely, terrified voice in the crowd.

The MDNR played back a tape of my voice after the meeting. I could have gotten a job as Mickey Mouse at Disney. No problem. The MDNR let me stay a few minutes and then walked out with me because it started to look like an angry mob in the parking lot. And guess who they were all glaring at...??

But... we got the ramp. It's the one at Webber Dam on the Grand River. I use it several times a year. And it feels real good every time I launch there.

Now, who wants to volunteer for the MUCC fisheries committee? Step #1.

[SethV]

If the "fight" is just for a longer C&R season, sure I support that, but really, why bother?  We throw lippless cranks and jerkbaits now anyway (fishing for carp or dogfish).  I can't get excited about paper tournaments, so what would the big change be?

It still seems weird that an organization that is here to manage the natural resources (DNR) does so by enacting social laws.  I don't get that at all!  They need to make regulations based on fact and protecting a resource, and in this case that means no season on bass. 

Any fisherman that opposes a year round bass season just does not know the facts.

Seth

[djkimmel]

What you say makes perfect sense.

To us. But not to everyone. Not even to everyone on this forum.

I think some day maybe we could have year round open bass fishing or at least 9 or 10 months out of the year, but I think the only way we can see it happen any time soon is step by step in a fashion that 'scares' less people and lets everyone get used to the changes, and decide that it seems to be okay after all.

Maybe some of you missed the 'fun' I had on some other forums for the couple years before the latest season change. It was vicious. I was even threatened at one public meeting. Ridiculous, but when it comes to change, people do have a hard time. I expected most of what happened. Doesn't mean I like a lot of it, but that is how these things usually go.

Getting tournaments more accepted on many inland lakes is a more difficult and complex problem. That may just take more time and evolution - as much within tournament angler behavior as with others. If we don't get a longer open season, I expect the tournament card will have a lot to do with that. Also, do not be surprised when people propose that we catch and release in the summer to make up for catch and keep in the spring.

I frankly would like to be able to bass fish as soon as the water thaws but the MDNR asked me to set an example by following the present law and I have done so because of the amount of time and effort it took to just get where we are at. I can't state enough how hard and long this change took. I was beginning to think it might not happen for many more years and yet here we are. I think people will come around a little faster now, but be sure that some will say we are greedy and selfish for 'wanting more.'

Patience is a necessary virtue in northern states when it comes to lengthening seasons. If I knew another way, I would try it. If anyone else knows another way, I am all ears. Sure, many of you are out there fishing anyway, but I would personally just prefer to do it legally, without any guilt or possible risk, no matter how small, that a rare incident could ruin an otherwise nice day doing what I love to do. Many of you never get bothered out there, but we are not all that lucky all the time. I speak from personal experience of the past.

I will ask one favor now. Please continue to get the word out about GreatLakesBass.com. Every member we get is one more person that has a chance to see and hear information, and points of view they might not get elsewhere. Every one of us really does play an important part when we talk to our friends, neighbors and other anglers about things like studies and biology verses old wives tales than many have been raised on.

[Bender]

Dan, what does MUCC do? They say "MUCC advocates for the wise and scientific management of Michigan's natural resources through public policy and litigation." Either they do not know the bass fishermen would like a longer season, think it is unwise, or have not studied the scientific reports. Have any of the fishing organizations or federations attempted to contact the state or does the DNR only listen to MUCC since they have "nearly 100,000 members".

I have had a little trouble finding how the season was changed here. From what I gather Regional DEC (DNR) mangers were allowed to choose to do whatever they wanted to do. In the areas where they were pressured by groups such as BASS they allowed a year round CIR season in addition to the normal season. In areas without any pressure from an outside group they did nothing. I have talked to the DEC about a couple issues here but I have not heard back since I asked about this.

[ROI Outdoors]

All I'm saying is it is easier to push the windmill in the same direction as the wind. A longer catch and release season is an actual possibility with some planning, care and hard work by some individuals. It will not be easy and involve many meetings, lots of writing and listening to a lot of people who have never read a study or talked to researchers tell you what they 'know' about bass biology, but it is getting more and more likely a possibility every year now. Maybe a 40 to 60% chance of success with all of the above.

Going about it in Michigan with any mention of wanting to hold more tournaments during an open season in the spring has about a 1% chance of success for someone who doesn't mind having a lot of people angry with him or her. I say 1% because few things are completely impossible.

Now, who wants to volunteer for the MUCC fisheries committee? Step #1.

Currently working on a petition to be signed by tournament anglers, bass fisherman, local business owners, you, me and Dupree - should be up www.roioutdoors.com and in the GLB ROI Outdoors tournament forum.  What we are proposing will somewhat please the Inland Lake Association as so we will gain some support from the MUCC. 

I would LOVE to volunteer for MUCC Fisheries Committee; it isn't as monumental of a task once the facts are laid out and once we give-get with the Lake Associations/MUCC/undereducated people/fisherman we will change the Law.  From a management standpoint the current program does nothing but hurt Michigan's economy - for example there is a Local Bait & Tackle Shop down the road from my house and I stopped in there today to see if the Owner had put out his Terminator Spinnerbaits yet (which he did get out for me and I snagged 11 double-willows in 3/8 & 1/2 for $4 a peice which for those old ones is a steal!); he said the season isn't open yet so he doesn't put the majority of his Bass baits out until after May.  I asked him how impactful having a year-round open season would be on his business and he said it be huge - this is true for pretty much all local economies. 

99% of the time when I go to lake I stop and get either gas near the lake, a couples waters and maybe a NOS/Rockstar or 2, a Slim Jim or something to eat that usually runs $10-$20.  I bet those local places would rather I/We do that 100 times a year vs. 50 times a year.  Every time I go down south to Gull or east to St. Clair I spend money at local gas stations, restaurants, hotels, tackle shops - why would a state with the worst economy in the nation have ineffective laws in order to send our discretionary income down to Indiana or other states?  PERCEPTION is the simple answer people complaining about tournament anglers and bassers flipping their lures on their gas lines, pontoon boats, docks is the longer answer.  The full circle effect is in effect because people are not properly educated - most Lake Associations want sandy beaches and great skiing lakes but if they only understood they are devaluing their property by removing all the structure, weeds, fish then maybe they would start to understand the importance of balance and ultimately everyone can have a piece of their selfish pie.  The opposite is true for the fisherman, we need to be mindful that not everyone fishes.  Clean, sandy skiing water is the Cat's Milk to a lot of people so lets have clean, sandy skiing water with a motherload of 7-8lbers.  Compromise is the word and that is part of the strategy - we limit the number of tourneys on inland bodies of water and they concede the fact that there are a great deal educated fisherman who understand when 4 tournaments a week on a 300-acre lake is a little too much for the fish, clean water, sandy beaches and wake-boarders.  Can someone say bigger tourneys?  This type of model almost forces the return of the Big Weekend Events by taking us away from the local holes and making us go to the BIGGER WATERS (Seth your 250 called and told me this was a great idea ).

It starts with the Anglers.  We all need to be more respectful of others lack of knowledge - the effects of water temperature and mortality (spring tourneys would have much lower mortality, and the last time I fished one a tournament was catch & release.  As a matter of fact one could make the argument that putting a fish in a livewell system like a Flow-Rite could actually better protect a fatigued fish after a long fight from predators).  There is no correlation to bed fishing and reproductive rates IF THE FISH ARE PROPERLY HANDLED (again I am talking about simply possesing a fish for a short time in a fish friendly life support tank that revives them and protects them from other predators in the area).  Bass fisherman namely tournament fisherman like to gamble, buy compulsively, spend money they don't have and then gamble some more.  Their economic impact is by far the greatest when you compare other similar segmented demographics within the angling community.  It ends with the Anglers.  We need to respectfully educate the masses in order to make a 100,000 member organization look like a Lions game crowd in the 4th quarter of a Blow-out.  Every local gas station, tackle company, restaurant, hotel, or any other business near any fishery should be all about it once they understand the facts - it is good for their business and it is good for Michigan.

Another thing tournament anglers/organizations, weigh-masters, directors should start doing is taking better data and offering up those details as a management tool to our conservation agencies - length, mortality, delayed mortality (hard to do measure that one but not impossible), and also continuously improve the delayed C&R process (aka tournament weigh-ins).  I am somewhat dumbfounded that there is no standardized process readily available to the masses with weigh-in procedures and best practices - I know it is out there but it should be in our face out there.  It is common sense improvement and again it simply comes down to educating people on facts.  You would think with all the tournament organizations out there in Michigan someone has kept super-detailed databases with more information than the average Joe but it doesn't seem that way; a lot of organizations have lost their way and forgot that they would have an organization without the fish so we should kindly remind them of that fact while we are at.  On the flipside there are organizations (tournaments) that try to hide dead fish in order for Pam Anderson to not think we are complete Barbians but rather simple savages - if the people handling the fish or running the tournament are doing it the right there shouldn't be such a major production to try and hide the fact that life happened.  To me it looks like we are trying to hide something when we should be EDUCATING people like Pamela on a boat in Lake Tahoe..........

The GREAT THING about this topic is there is an overall concensus among Anglers that CHANGE is needed; it is one of the only things serious anglers can all somewhat agree on.  My Glass is always Half-Full because I live in a state surrounded by freshwater; the greatest thing about living here is we don't even have 25% of it right so the POSITIVE change opportunities are almost endless.  There will be a petition available soon so start thinking about all the signatures you are going to get and then we will deal with the organizations who simply need a big bowl of FACT for breakfast with a glass of ECONOMICS 101 to wash it down - in a respectful manner of course.  Somebody could probably win the 2010 Michigan Gubernatorial race with a "Fishing Stimulus Platform" (anything is better than those Pure Michigan commercials that try to make Michigan look like Bora Bora or Panama!). 

This one was choppy, long as usual, and most likely a recap of what everyone else has already said but I don't sleep that great when it's 80 DEGREES on April 2nd and I'm about to go WHACK some Largies in 2 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Indiana of course....................................................

[thedude]

i don't have the experience and background that dan has - but i'm fearful if we do not push for everything all at once. Seems like whenever i bring up a bass season - quite often someone says "well you just got C&R and now you want more?" like we're greedy or something. 

If we're going to get them to budge at all, we should get as much as they are willing to give or it will be another 10 years before we can push the change again. As stated the evidence supporting a full season is staggering. We need to get our DNR away from doing moronic things like letting management decisions be put on the ballot (ahem, dove bill....) and start managing fish and wildlife resources based on the biological factors they are supposed to understand.  With the current shake-up in the DNR org, now might be the perfect time to start applying pressure. They are obviously trying to simplify their processes and implementing change during a time of transition like this comes at a lower cost.

[djkimmel]

Because MUCC is large and represents a great number of diverse outdoors clubs, it makes sense for the MDNR to listen to their opinions and feelings on things. That is a reasonable way to test the waters regarding outdoors persons' attitudes in Michigan. I would do the same thing myself considering things. No other state has something quite like MUCC.

If MUCC comes out against something, it would seem like a reasonable conclusion to believe it does not have popular support. So, it's a good idea to get MUCC to support your position.

Part of the reason we ended up with the same opening day for catch and release as the walleye, pike and trout opener (besides it being an easy choice for consistency) is because some of the walleye clubs complained that an earlier opener - like the April 1 proposed by bass anglers - would give some anglers a chance to fish for walleye illegally by saying they were bass fishing.

That is just something that has to be considered and dealt with. The easiest way might be for someone to get appointed to the MUCC fisheries committee or whatever they have now, and work for acceptance of a new change.

[djkimmel]

It is a common tactic to ask for more than you want so you can compromise down to what you really want. Again, part of that is knowing up front you won't get all or exactly what you wanted most of the time. Compromise is almost always necessary. Especially in a broad issue that might involve so many different people and opinions.

One other thing about MUCC that I did not mention but should be obvious, they represent a diverse, broad base so it doesn't just come down to just what bass anglers want but what is acceptable to a majority of their members. Which fits right into the compromise thing.

Which is the same with any statewide change to anything. What is acceptable to enough people to win a majority.

I specifically mentioned the 'greedy' thing because I know that will come up. It came up before. So, the more we were to ask for now, the more 'greedy' we will appear to some. That could make things a lot harder. So maybe not a good idea right off the bat to ask for too much?

Just needs to be considered with many other factors.