DNR giving tickets for "attempting to catch bass"

[mikesmiph]

I just dont get it. What some of you are saying is, its ok to break the law, as long as you dont agree with the law. Not the way I was raised. Also, not the way I taught my kids. I guess I'm learning who I dont want to have any influence on Veronica.You know, there are consequenses other than just a ticket.

[Skulley]

I just dont get it. What some of you are saying is, its ok to break the law, as long as you dont agree with the law. Not the way I was raised. Also, not the way I taught my kids. I guess I'm learning who I dont want to have any influence on Veronica.You know, there are consequenses other than just a ticket.

I did not say that it was alright to break the law just because I don't agree with it.  I was just requesting information on the subject to see how valid these reports are.  Seems to me that the Ohio anglers are reporting that they are receiving tickets.  I do believe that in a post in a forum that DK recently locked, that there was one member that said he didn't care if it was against the law or not.  He was going to target bass anyway.  That is his choice.  If I was going to follow that M.O. I would certainly not throw myself up on the "radar screen" by admitting that I was targeting bass on a forum such as this.  I am going walleye fishing tomorrow and next week when the season opens for bass, I am going bass fishing.  I certainly don't teach my children either to break the law if they don't agree with it.  I was not brought up that way either.  We must respect the law for what it is.  If we don't agree, we should expend the energy to change it.  And regardless of what the influence is, our children and grandchildren will always have outside influences good or bad.  There is only so much of that we will be able to control as our children and grandchildren grow.  All we can do is emphasize that they need to make the right choices.  That is what I try to drill into my children's heads.  That is all we can do.  No one said it was going to be easy.

I have talked to some lawyers on the subject and was told that a ticket such as that could be easy to beat.  The MDNR would have do have some very conclusive evidence to make a ticket like that stick.  The reasoning that was used by a couple of the lawyers I spoke to was you never know what is going to bite when you throw a lure out there.  I get that, but it still doesn't make it right to bass fish out of season.  I have gone walleye fishing in the past when bass was out of season and caught bass.  I couldn't help that I caught 10 bass to 1 or 2 walleye.  I was using live bait.  I of course threw all the bass back but kept my two walleye.  I was targeting walleye and not bass.  That being said, based on what I wrote in the earlier post, should I be ticketed for targeting bass when I had two walleye in the livewell.  I don't know.  I think if the MDNR was watching me and then approached me, I would try to do the best I could to explain myself, however I may still get a ticket.  Just think, next Saturday, this topic will not matter.  I will be one of those anglers that will do the best I can to stay within the boundries of the law, however, I am sick of this topic.  I want to spend my energy trying to change it rather than fishing for bass out of season.  Just my 3 cents..............      I think you and I can agree here Mike that a bit of common sense can go along way..........however I am finding that common sense isn't so common.


BD                              

[thedude]

I just dont get it. What some of you are saying is, its ok to break the law, as long as you dont agree with the law. Not the way I was raised. Also, not the way I taught my kids. I guess I'm learning who I dont want to have any influence on Veronica.You know, there are consequences other than just a ticket.

on the contrary - people shouldn't just be complacent about nonsensical and over regulative rules. This country was founded upon civil disobedience. I will gladly sign any petition, participate in any meetings or public hearings and voice my opinion based on facts to push the matter. When those avenues take too long or are not given the respect or attention they deserve, i see no problem with pushing the issue.

Secondly, one of the reasons the DNR likes to site about not allowing fishing before the season is the lack of people fishing for bass during that time - which is ridiculous because there's not many people fishing because the law exists in the first place. The more people they see out there, the bigger the issue becomes to them. As dan mentioned - out of 400k people, you'd think we wouldn't be the red-headed stepchild but we are.

Basically - it proves a point. I get a ticket, fight it and it gets thrown out - or i pay it. Either way the DNR  learns people want to fish for bass during this period or in the case of the ticket is thrown out also learn that the rule is only mildly enforceable.

[mikesmiph]

You will notice I never mentioned any names in my post. I was not pointing any fingers. I have personally been given two recent pictures of people I know holding a bass that was caught out of season and blatantly being proud of the fact they were fishing out of season. This, to me, is wrong, and I want no part in it. If you are fishing for other species, and a catch a bass, fine. I would help pay for your defense if it came down to that. I guess it comes down to conscience. Some people are out there fishing out of season. I dont agree with that. Its as simple as that. I also dont feel that if enough people break a law, that will help change the law. It just doesnt work that way. I will work in any capacity I can to legally change this law. I dont like it either. BUT, I wont break it. I'll also be glad when the season finally gets here. But, I dont think thats the cue to stop talking about this. We need to come together and work towards changing the law. Federation membership certainly helps with that. I believe you will soon see a big push by TBF to change this law, but we need more voices. I have also had many people recently tell me they wont join TBF because they dont fish the state championship. To me, thats not the reason I belong. I'm done with this topic on here. I know where to expend my energy.

[Skulley]

I know you didn't mention names and I don't have a guilty conscience.  But I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying Mike.  I have a membership in the TBF as well as the Federation Nation and I believe these are the avenues we should go down if we want to change it.  The two people that you got pictures from were just individuals thumbing their nose at the system.  Those are the ones that put themselves up on the radar screen if you will as well as the individual I was talking about on another post.  It is your prerogative to have the opinions you do and I agree with those opinions but not everyone does.  That being said I believe all the persons that are members of this forum should come full circle and work together to change it.  Thumbing your nose at the system will not change anything as those persons who did.  But the other side is persons like you and I will get it changed because of hard work and perseverance and the ones that are thumbing their noses will stand idly by and watch us and then benefit from all the hard work that we put into it to get the law changed.  After next week, I won't forget that the law needs changing.  I will work just as hard and put my energy into changing rather than complaining.  It will take letters to state representatives, congressmen, senators, etc.  And Mike you know as well as I some people don't have a conscience.  Those are the ones that should be in the MDNR's cross hairs.  Joining an organization like the TBF or the Federation Nation doesn't mean you have to fish state championships.  That reasoning that you explained is ridiculous.  No sense to that.  There are so many more things that these organizations do besides have state championships.  As I said earlier, common sense isn't so common.


BD                             

[motocross269]

Dan K, I stand corrected on my statement....I just wonder how the survey was worded....Did they ask the anglers their "Primary species" or what species they fish for....Walleye guys that fish for Bass,,,Steelhead guys that fish for Bass etc.....

It just seems to me that the majority of the guys that I know outside of the tournament world primarily fish for other species....Try to launch your boat the next few weekends on the Detroit river where guys are fishing for Walleye or on the St Joe on the west side where the steelie guys have been chasing them for a few weeks....

That is part of the reason I guess I have so much faith in the Michigan DNR...Fishing here rocks...Period.....Even with the continued loss of habitat hunting isn't too shabby either....

I like to use the Michigan BFL results vs the rest of the regions BFL weights when I speak about how great fishing is in Michigan.....With the same format you can compare apples to apples and Michigan throughout the entire year continues to out perform the other states(Even Texas and California)....But that is another subject...

I am just waiting for the weather to get a touch better when I have a day off so I can go chase some Walleye.....

[ROI Outdoors]

Bass anglers not only represent over 30% of all licensed anglers in Michigan they also spend way more time on the water than any group of angler.  Back in 2001 the estimated economic input of bass fishing to the Michigan economy was $321 million dollars.....current estimates are around $500 million to the states economy so it's a pretty big deal.  Now extend that economic impact by another 2 months and I think we'd see some major positive effects immediately.  From a tournament standpoint Michigan ranks 4th in overall participation nationally - we are the only northern state in the top 5 so there's opportunity for positive economic growth from that aspect as well.

DK please correct me if I am wrong but I was told that a seasonal regulatory change does not need legislative approval.  This is what I was told by a couple DNR Officers after I discussed my plan to try and propose legislation for a "bass stamp" that would allow anglers to fish year round for bass and provide some much needed revenue generation for the MDNR.  They told me that because my proposal involved a fee that it would have to go through the legislative process and would take up to a year to even hit the floor of the state house.  They proceeded to tell me that it would be much easier to simply propose a seasonal date change or lift current restrictions because those changes do not have to go through the Michigan Legislative process.  In a round about way they told me to get it in the right hands inside the DNR and we could see the new restrictions or lack there of in the next seasons Regulations Handbook.  Where they giving correct information??

[thedude]

A law is a law and there is no fault in that way of thinking.

The world to me is not black and white however.  In most cases, i would hold myself to a higher moral and ethical standard than any law can enforce, that is what my parents taught me. Personally - I don't need a law to keep me from using drugs, stealing cars, assaulting someone, being untruthful or irresponsible, etc... because i simply wouldn't consider even doing those things. In the same vein, i can find no fault, no harm, no ethical objection whatsoever with catching bass this time of year and immediately releasing them regardless of if the catch was intentional or not. 

Given the facts, this is a law of convenience for the DNR and it (at least in my opinion) does more harm to the resource than good. I mean c'mon, what's better for the fish? - catch & delayed release in 40-50 degree water or catch and keep at peak spawn or in august when the water is 80 degrees?

[djkimmel]

I'm going to be very busy for the next week and a half so I'll have to wait until after that time to look some things up and provide some details to motocross269's questions about how the survey is done, what they ask and what they feel it shows (I've used it many times for various purposes - but I'll have to look it up again to refresh my memory) and same to answer your questions you raise ROI Outdoors. I just can't recall the specifics off the top of my head with enough certainty to want to answer them and risk putting out bad info.

One thing I will point out is that Michigan has huge amounts of Great Lakes waters, thousands of miles of inland rivers and between 10,000 and 11,000 lakes - unless you can visit a large number of them at about the same time, its kind of hard for any of us to feel we have any kind of real handle on what all the anglers in Michigan, and anglers visiting Michigan, are doing, especially if just going by a couple, three known, popular fisheries. Some people actually do make decisions that way, but it is a good way to reach bad conclusions. It would be no different than going to one place that is real popular with panfish or perch anglers at the right time of year, or straight out from a popular cold water fish port, or say the Au Sable River after the end of this month. If we did that, we might all think most anglers in Michigan are panfish anglers, or Great Lakes salmon anglers, or stream trout fishermen. Many people actually think exactly that way - the 'crowd' they most hang out with becomes the dominant crowd in their mind. Not very scientific.

I will add that I personally do not support a bass stamp. We pay plenty of fees and taxes, and how would it really help for 80-some conservation officers to have to now check all the anglers out there in the spring to see if they have the bass stamp or not? In addition, what would a CO do if now he feels someone who does not have a stamp is targeting bass in the preseason when the person says they are really targeting crappie / dogfish / walleye / pike / etc. It's just another variation of the same existing problem. Bass fishing on most waters is not the same as say duck hunting, where you know the person just shot at a duck, and if they get one, you know they harvested a duck. It's dead and they have it. Where they hunt ducks will often be pretty obviously a duck hunting location.

I like regular fishing licenses a lot better. You either have one and can legally fish for what is legal to fish for, or you don't have one and can't legally fish. Everyone is equal. I would also prefer to think that if we simplify regulations, and add additional fishing opportunities, there will be a possible increase in fishing license purchases.

There are studies that show the later in a year someone has to decide to finally buy a license, the more likely they are to just say, 'aw forget it, it's late June now, I'll just skip this year and fish next year.' Lots of licenses are sold to people who fish less than 10 times a year and unlike most of us, it does not take a lot to cause them to just not buy one and 'skip' this season. Skip a season or two in a row and they often become 'non-anglers' possibly never coming back to the sport. That is a much bigger concern to me than some of the other stuff that is 'debated.' Fewer anglers makes us all more vulnerable to more loss of opportunity.

[motocross269]

Good discussion....The subject changed a little but I am learning some things that I "Thought" I knew but maybe didn't know so well....

Dan K, I tried to do a google search on Fish  surveys but couldn't find much other than harvested species on Saginaw bay and Charter captain creel surveys....I would be very interested to see any Targeted species surveys..

ROI, If we could get the economy rolling a little better in this state I would be willing to bet that Michigan could move up a few places in Tournament participation...Can you get me a link about the tourney participation...I would love to have that info as Ammo when I discuss Tournaments with my Southern buddies....

[thedude]

the cost of a license will inevitably go up in the next few years. what i would like to see is a base license - good for panfish and other rough/non-game fish and individual tags for bass, pike, muskie, trout/salmon and walleye.  I think the tags should be negligible toward the total cost (say 2-5$).  This way the data is all there - the DNR will know exactly how many people fish for what species and their current system is already setup to work this way. This way we are not catering toward a high cost fishery that generates little revenue (ie MUSKIES). Enforcement should be mean possession (catch and immediate release being OK if you don't have the tag - except maybe in the case of muskies).  make it cheap enough that people will buy them as it is more a means to get data rather than generate revenue.

My guess is that you will see the DNR take much different stance on its attitude toward bass fisherman. I would foresee the inland walleye fisherman to benefit greatly from this as well as not much attention is being given to inland walleye lakes these days either.

If not this - the DNR point of sale system both online and in stores is already configured for surveys. Anyone who duck hunts has taken the HIP survey as it is required. A similar survey could also be required for all fishing license sales - basically 3 questions listing your top 3 most pursued game fish ranked in order would provide a huge amount of data on who is fishing for what.

[Redbone]

IMO we should double the fee for a fishing license. Then raise the fee for not having one 10X. Everything else goes up with inflation. Why not that?

A stamp is OK, but all that is doing is making it OK for Joe Blow to fish for anything, just because he has some sort of license.

How about a pre season license.

[djkimmel]

Raising license fees in Michigan is as bad a battle as trying to put in a new public access on any lake with houses on it.

[djkimmel]

Good discussion....The subject changed a little but I am learning some things that I "Thought" I knew but maybe didn't know so well....

Dan K, I tried to do a google search on Fish  surveys but couldn't find much other than harvested species on Saginaw bay and Charter captain creel surveys....I would be very interested to see any Targeted species surveys..

ROI, If we could get the economy rolling a little better in this state I would be willing to bet that Michigan could move up a few places in Tournament participation...Can you get me a link about the tourney participation...I would love to have that info as Ammo when I discuss Tournaments with my Southern buddies....

Easy, peasy, Japaneezy...

FWS Survey FAQ
http://www.fws.gov/faq/surveyfaq.html

Overall National Survey - 2006 including by species overall and Great Lakes
http://library.fws.gov/pubs/nat_survey2006_final.pdf

Link to State-specific breakdowns for 1996, 2001, 2006
http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fishing.html

In Michigan, only general panfish anglers outnumber Black Bass anglers. EVEN on the Great Lakes only, Black Bass are 4th most sought after fish with just under 100,000 anglers total and about 85,000 residents, behind Perch, Salmon and Walleye.

Great Lakes only numbers are mostly estimates though based on small samples sizes. Total residents and non-resident bass anglers in Michigan in 2006 = 473,000. Next highest is Walleye with 246,000.

[Mike Nolan]

Geez, I am sure sick of this topic.  If we could expend all the energy that we do talking about it on this forum and use that same energy to try to change the law, we could probably succeed.  I would like to have some one who actually got a ticket to post here.  Other wise it is just here say and nothing more.  Mr. Nolan who started this post should have better info before he makes any statements on the subject.  Look at the subject line of the post.  Then in the first line of the post he said "he heard".  I hear a lot of things too.  Like just recently I posted about Homeland Security was taking over the hot pond area to protect the plant from terrorists.  That rumor has been going on since Homeland Security was formed.  I posted that because my source was somewhat credible, however a more credible source in my opinion came forward and said maybe yes and maybe no.  Turned out to be the resurfacing of the old rumor.  Oh well.  

So is the DNR really giving tickets or is Mr. Nolan only speculating that the DNR is giving tickets.    And I would like to know who Mr. Nolan heard that from and did his source get a ticket.  Until someone steps forward, all it can be is here say.  Just like the hot pond is going to be protected by Homeland Security.  Here say and nothing more.  Nothing more than rumors.  Just my 3 cents.    I am going to wait until I get a ticket or Homeland Security stops me from fishing there.  Until I have a personal experience, I am going to treat it as nothing more than here say.  Geez, I am sick of this subject.  Did I say I was sick of this subject??    

And they have a gun...

And a lot of us have guns too........so what.  I have a concealed weapons permit so I can carry mine too.  And do you really think they are going to pull it on you for getting a ticket.  I am with DK, they are the law and we should respect them no matter what.


BD                              

I haven't been back to check this thread until I bumped into Dan the other day and he said it kind of took off.  For the record I do know two people that have been fined for C & R bass fishing out of season.  They will not come forward or try to fight the tickets for personal reasons and I'm certainly not going to name them because some loud mouth wants names.  They both paid their tickets which I believe were $140.  I don't care if whether people believe the DNR are issuing tickets or not, and I certainly am not telling you not to fish.  My point is this is another law without basis and I'm sure the DNR knows it.  For any MI DNR officer to issue a ticket for people C&R bass fishing prior to the season opening is for one reason and one reason only, and that is to raise revenue.
   
Jeff Cox- tell me you haven't attempted to catch bass out of season!

The guy that used the hunting analogy- are you practicing catch and release hunting?  You're talking apples and oranges here bud.  You're talking about doing something that has been deemed by the MI DNR detrimental to the environment (and I'm not commenting on what IS or what IS NOT detrimental to the environment regarding fishing or hunting) and not getting caught.  My contention is by allowing a C & R season for bass during spawning season, the MI DNR is "now" suggesting C & R bass fishing does not have a negative impact on the environment....so why not open the C & R season January 1?!?  You can argue with the DNR's assessment of fishing or hunting regulations and the environmental impact of such regulations all you want, but my post is questioning the hypocrisy of the current wording and enforcement on the subject. 

[Skulley]

I respect that you don't want to give names and I wouldn't either if friends of mine got a ticket.  However, all you would have had to say is that some persons that I know personally got tickets.  My point is that we have heard of people getting these kinds of tickets for years.  Just no one ever said that some one they know personally got a ticket after all these years....................but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth.  Your point was the hypocrisy of the law, my point was we've heard this for years and no one ever had good information.  Obviously your information is good.  Another friend of mine downriver said a friend of his got tickets also..............but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth.  If I wanted to be loud, I WOULD HAVE TYPED IT ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS.  But I wasn't.  I was just trying to make a point as part of this thread.  I get the hypocrisy part......I couldn't agree more with you.    


BD                  

[Mike Nolan]

I respect that you don't want to give names and I wouldn't either if friends of mine got a ticket.  However, all you would have had to say is that some persons that I know personally got tickets.  My point is that we have heard of people getting these kinds of tickets for years.  Just no one ever said that some one they know personally got a ticket after all these years....................but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth.  Your point was the hypocrisy of the law, my point was we've heard this for years and no one ever had good information.  Obviously your information is good.  Another friend of mine downriver said a friend of his got tickets also..............but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth.  If I wanted to be loud, I WOULD HAVE TYPED IT ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS.  But I wasn't.  I was just trying to make a point as part of this thread.  I get the hypocrisy part......I couldn't agree more with you.    


BD                  

Well whether or not you understood the point of the thread is debatable, but the point you MADE was insinuating I was lying about people actually getting tickets.  That leads me to believe you probably didn't understand my original comment (at least not after your first read) because whether or not you believe tickets are actually being issued wasn't the point I was making, but that is what you commented on.  So I'll stand by my "Loudmouth" comment and after seeing the frequency and argumentative nature in which you post, I will even dare go so far as to suggest you might be a bit of a know-it-all too....  and I have heard that about you from others too (I'm not giving any names!). 

[Skulley]

Well whether or not you understood the point of the thread is debatable, but the point you MADE was insinuating I was lying about people actually getting tickets.  That leads me to believe you probably didn't understand my original comment (at least not after your first read) because whether or not you believe tickets are actually being issued wasn't the point I was making, but that is what you commented on.  So I'll stand by my "Loudmouth" comment and after seeing the frequency and argumentative nature in which you post, I will even dare go so far as to suggest you might be a bit of a know-it-all too....  and I have heard that about you from others too (I'm not giving any names!). 

I insinuated nothing of the kind.  I merely questioned the validity because you have only posted on the site 14 times and we have been hearing this for years.  Kind of a seniority thing with us organized labor people.  No disrespect intended Mr. Nolan.  I never meant any insult to you or harbor any ill feelings towards you so I don't get why you had to resort to name calling.  I am a well educated man who loves bass fishing like every other forum member Mr. Nolan and although I do know a lot, I never claimed to be a "know-it-all" or even intended to be perceived as one.  Once again resorting to name calling isn't the way to go.  I do not like to argue Mr. Nolan, but I do like a good debate.  You probably heard these things from people that have never met me either and I would encourage you to not pass judgement on me until you have met me face to face.  I have no opinion of who you are or how you are and will not pass any judgement on you based on someone elses opinion until I have met you face to face and man to man.  That way we can help DK keep the site as friendly as we can between mature men.    


BD